RugbyRebels

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

Which Tyler wrote: ↑Fri Jun 20, 2025 10:11 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Fri Jun 20, 2025 10:02 pm It's a nice thought though, they could also play tests v Chile and Uruguay in the build up to the test series.

WT's proposed calendar

Sat 1: Canada in Ottawa
Wed 2: MLR Allstars in Boston
Sat 2: USA in New York

Sat 3: Uruguay in Montevideo
Wed 4: Chile in Santiago
Sat 4: Americas Invitational in Mendoza
Sat 5: Argentina in Buenos Aires
Wed 6: Brasil in Porto Alegre
Sat 6: Argentina in Cordoba
Sat 7: Argentina in Buenos Aires

Whilst it's a lot of air miles, there's no major time zone changes.
Presumably you'd set up camp initially somewhere around New York, and then somewhere around Buenos Aires; and travel to matches from those 2 camps. Only flights that's longer than 2 hours would be New York to Buenos Aires.

3.00pm KO in North America would be 8.00pm viewing time in B&I
3.00pm KO in Buenos Aires would be 7.00pm viewing time in B&I

UKHamlet wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 5:31 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 1:40 pm

UKHamlet wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 9:30 am Farrell's style of rugby is old fashioned and mechanistic. A bit like Gatland on steroids. The game has evolved in the last few years and grinding teams down doesn't work as well as it used to. France and NZ play a different sort of game, and they've done that by keeping the ball moving. There is an element of positionless rugby, but not to the extent mad Eddie wanted to play it. It's more like having no rucks, just keep the ball moving. England have adopted this style, albeit belatedly. They're starting to get some success with it, and I'm willing to predict they will develop into a seriously good side over the next couple of years if they continue with it. Crucially, Australia have also taken it to their bosom. They will score a lot of tries against a static, Farrell inspired, big-men-smashing-it-up-the-middle-trying-to-create-gaps, style of rugby. South Africa can get away with it, because South Africa, but even they have started popping the ball up from rucks rather than rolling it back to the 9. This is going to be an interesting test series. The old vs the new. I seriously doubt Farrell has the ability or willingness to change his style, and the series will be won or lost on how well Australia have adapted to this style of play. If they try to compete in muscularity with an almost completely Irish pack, they will lose. If they move the ball quickly and unpredictably, they're in with a shout. For the good of the game, I'm hoping Australia back their talent and run the legs off the Lions.

Is this your assessment of Farrell in general or what you saw yesterday? I was surprised at just how loose and frantic it was, with such a willingness for (loose, often just bad) offloads you’d think Farrell stated that as the plan. It feels unlikely they all decided to play like that on a whim.

Understandably he didn’t seem happy with the amount of lost possession after the game though.

If anything I’d say (as Banquo suggests) we need some more heavyweight players up front. Unfortunately McCarthy and Conan are the only real options in the squad that fill the lock enforcer and ball carrying 8 roles, which doesn’t really leave much room for form or balance.

It’s odd because I’d say Farrell has geared this squad very much towards what you describe as the current/future trend in rugby, but we’re actually quite lacking in the smash-it-up department, leaving that all to the 3/4 line for some reason.

Maybe I’d made my mind up this already before the game but really don’t want to see Aki/Tuipulotu pairing again - which I would agree felt like a real Gatland selection.

Still, there’s a lot of room for building this play style and tweaking the balances of the team (sticking with a more mobile pack to keep the ball alive) once everyone is available.

In general. I didn't see the match last night, I was in a seminar. Have to admit, if they played it fast and loose, that would be a huge surprise.

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:01 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.

I'd've had Jamie Ritchie myself - seems a travesty that he's not included after the 6N that he had.

The reaction in the media, both social and worthwhile, to Pollock is incredible - I can't believe that people are judging Pollock's mistakes vs Argentina like he's supposed to be one of the best players in the world who let himself down, rather than looking at someone who everyone thought was a ridiculous gamble for England to have on their bench for one game.

Puja

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:01 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.

I'd've had Jamie Ritchie myself - seems a travesty that he's not included after the 6N that he had.

The reaction in the media, both social and worthwhile, to Pollock is incredible - I can't believe that people are judging Pollock's mistakes vs Argentina like he's supposed to be one of the best players in the world who let himself down, rather than looking at someone who everyone thought was a ridiculous gamble for England to have on their bench for one game.

Puja

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 8:04 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 4:10 am Agree with most of what's been said. Lack of cohesion but no need to panic. Some of the time tried too much with the offloads, but a few needless kicks (commentators love the grubbers into touch, but I thought M Smith's one just before the last Argentina try was a waste of good ball.

It's always funny though with Lions tours the added scrutiny on individual mistakes. VDM had two great attacking moments early, lost a ball on the ground and lost a high ball contest and suddenly he's not good enough. Freeman looked sharp but also lost at least one aerial contest, put in a pointless chip that was easily marked, and dropped a sitter at the end. Basically, there is a danger of reading too much into everything.

There is, and that’s a recognition of the level of competition for each place. With the tour so short any poor performance can be the one which loses a player a test position.

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:01 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.

I'd've had Jamie Ritchie myself - seems a travesty that he's not included after the 6N that he had.

The reaction in the media, both social and worthwhile, to Pollock is incredible - I can't believe that people are judging Pollock's mistakes vs Argentina like he's supposed to be one of the best players in the world who let himself down, rather than looking at someone who everyone thought was a ridiculous gamble for England to have on their bench for one game.

Puja

Cameo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 22, 2025 10:21 am

Sandydragon wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 8:04 am

Cameo wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 4:10 am Agree with most of what's been said. Lack of cohesion but no need to panic. Some of the time tried too much with the offloads, but a few needless kicks (commentators love the grubbers into touch, but I thought M Smith's one just before the last Argentina try was a waste of good ball.

It's always funny though with Lions tours the added scrutiny on individual mistakes. VDM had two great attacking moments early, lost a ball on the ground and lost a high ball contest and suddenly he's not good enough. Freeman looked sharp but also lost at least one aerial contest, put in a pointless chip that was easily marked, and dropped a sitter at the end. Basically, there is a danger of reading too much into everything.

There is, and that’s a recognition of the level of competition for each place. With the tour so short any poor performance can be the one which loses a player a test position.

I get that to an extent, but all these players have a back catalogue. The coaches aren't going to be judging their individual abilities too much based on moments in these matches. Fairer, though, to judge how well they are picking up the system etc. (though very early for that). Not saying form doesn't matter, but a dropped ball here or there shouldn't massively change underlying views on a player's merits.

Anyway, back to the backrow discussion. I'm in the Ritchie should have gone camp, but I think there are two seperate discussions going on here. I don't think swapping Ritchie in for Pollock achieves much, he may have made the test team and improved it slightly, but they already have lots of players who do a similar job (T Curry being the most obvious). The real issue is a lack of carriers/physical presence in the backrow. The solution to that is not Ritchie (or Darge). If you want a Scot for that it would be Fagerson, but he didn't have a great 6N then got injured. Willis would be higher up the list.

Pollock offers something so different that it is hard to weigh up his selection against others. I suspect he will do pretty well in the easier tour matches, but not quite make the test team, but I don't blame them for wanting a look.

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jun 22, 2025 10:35 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:01 pm

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.

I'd've had Jamie Ritchie myself - seems a travesty that he's not included after the 6N that he had.

The reaction in the media, both social and worthwhile, to Pollock is incredible - I can't believe that people are judging Pollock's mistakes vs Argentina like he's supposed to be one of the best players in the world who let himself down, rather than looking at someone who everyone thought was a ridiculous gamble for England to have on their bench for one game.

Puja

I haven’t seen the specific reactions you’re talking about, so maybe I’m missing something, but surely if you’ve been picked to go on a Lions tour at all then you are going to be judged against the standard of being a good player.

It being a development tool for a player or an easy way of getting a bit of media hype doesn’t seem like it should come in to it. Why should people not be judging his performances by the standards of what we want in the test team?

Again, not saying he was awful or anything, just questioning what it was people actually saw beyond ‘energy’.

Banquo wrote: ↑Sun Jun 22, 2025 12:16 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sun Jun 22, 2025 10:35 am

Puja wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 11:01 pm

I'd've had Jamie Ritchie myself - seems a travesty that he's not included after the 6N that he had.

The reaction in the media, both social and worthwhile, to Pollock is incredible - I can't believe that people are judging Pollock's mistakes vs Argentina like he's supposed to be one of the best players in the world who let himself down, rather than looking at someone who everyone thought was a ridiculous gamble for England to have on their bench for one game.

Puja

I haven’t seen the specific reactions you’re talking about, so maybe I’m missing something, but surely if you’ve been picked to go on a Lions tour at all then you are going to be judged against the standard of being a good player.

It being a development tool for a player or an easy way of getting a bit of media hype doesn’t seem like it should come in to it. Why should people not be judging his performances by the standards of what we want in the test team?

Again, not saying he was awful or anything, just questioning what it was people actually saw beyond ‘energy’.

I've not seen anything suggesting he was fantastic either tbh, but as above, looked at home....and as you say, that's a minimum standard. I agree he should be judged on his own merits; but his rapid rate of development from Champ player at start of season,to comfortable looking Lions player is notable, but probably a different discussion.

Mr Mwenda wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 7:02 pm

Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Sat Jun 21, 2025 2:26 pm The Pollock situation is hard to judge because of the insane hype. I still can’t believe the noise every time he’s on camera or the hoards of fans waiting for him after every game. It’s like he’s from a boy band or something. He certainly looks the part.

He looked full of energy and had a good rip in the tackle, but I don’t really know what it was people were so impressed with to be honest. A bit like Ludlam or Moody he bounds around like a Labrador and it certainly catches the eye, but I struggle to be sure when he’s actually being effective in his core role, outside of the fantastic steals and linebreaks.

That’s not to say he won’t develop, but the things that concern me like his physicality and heft in the tackle area (Albornoz miss really was poor, leading directly a try) aren’t things that are going to develop in the next few weeks surely.

This might be the making of him and he’ll be able to use all of his incredible strengths to really impact these games, but I just don’t think he’s a better player than Darge right now. Not that another 7 is really what this squad needs anyway.

I'd've selected Darge over Pollock myself but I can see the value of the labrador within the wider squad dynamic. The enthusiasm seems infectious (at least from a distance). Still, harsh on Darge.