RugbyRebels

scuzzaman wrote:

Len wrote:The ABs didn't play to their best either. Quite a few opportunities blown. If they had clicked it would be a bloodbath. Argentina and SA will give us bigger problems

I hope so. Because we need to know before we go north in November.

I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

Len wrote:I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

Yeah, I'm pretty zen with that, but I've seen the All Blacks get complacent, and young teams with early success are prone to it.

I expect the northern sides to do what they normally do; push us hard for 60 to 80* minutes (depending on which side we're looking at) and then fade in the last quarter.

I want to know they can handle real pressure.

P.S. Does anyone have a good video (or a link to one) of the Franks "eye gouge". I saw it happen live and the ref was right there looking directly at the maul, so the whole thing seemed odd.

[EDIT: * I meant to write "50 to 60 minutes"]

scuzzaman wrote:P.S. Does anyone have a good video (or a link to one) of the Franks "eye gouge". I saw it happen live and the ref was right there looking directly at the maul, so the whole thing seemed odd.

This seems to be the only publicly available footage. I'd like another angle, TBH.

There certainly seems to be a case to answer.

Mind you, what sort of Mickey Mouse outfit gives the ref a serve after the match but then fails to lodge a complaint with the judiciary over that sort of thing?

Lizard wrote:There certainly seems to be a case to answer.

Mind you, what sort of Mickey Mouse outfit gives the ref a serve after the match but then fails to lodge a complaint with the judiciary over that sort of thing?

Franks seems to be feeling around the whole face until he gets the right spot.

Len wrote:

scuzzaman wrote:

Len wrote:The ABs didn't play to their best either. Quite a few opportunities blown. If they had clicked it would be a bloodbath. Argentina and SA will give us bigger problems

I hope so. Because we need to know before we go north in November.

I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

I'm very curious who it is that actually suggests we're on a level with the all blacks? When you say fans you don't mean Clive Woodward do you? Do people actually think this, or is it one of those things you just kind of say.

Saying all that, I'm looking forward to it.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Len wrote:

scuzzaman wrote:
I hope so. Because we need to know before we go north in November.

I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

I'm very curious who it is that actually suggests we're on a level with the all blacks? When you say fans you don't mean Clive Woodward do you? Do people actually think this, or is it one of those things you just kind of say.

Saying all that, I'm looking forward to it.

Plenty of Poms down the rugby club innit.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Len wrote:

scuzzaman wrote:
I hope so. Because we need to know before we go north in November.

I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

I'm very curious who it is that actually suggests we're on a level with the all blacks? When you say fans you don't mean Clive Woodward do you? Do people actually think this, or is it one of those things you just kind of say.

Saying all that, I'm looking forward to it.

You've remembered that they're not playing us this year, right?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:

Len wrote:
I wouldn't be worried about those lot either. They're not as good as their fans think they are.

I'm very curious who it is that actually suggests we're on a level with the all blacks? When you say fans you don't mean Clive Woodward do you? Do people actually think this, or is it one of those things you just kind of say.

Saying all that, I'm looking forward to it.

You've remembered that they're not playing us this year, right?

Puja

Apparently not. I don't know who they're playing. Though it doesn't really make much difference to the argument. It could have been about Ireland/France, less so Wales and quite unlikely it was about Scotland.

When do we next play the ABs?

There is nothing scheduled that I know of. Mid year we've got Lions 2017 and France 2018. End of year, Ireland x2, Italy & France in 2016, nothing set in stone for 2017 or 2018 but I would expect England to feature.

As Lizard said, the earliest possible date is Autumn 2017, although rumour has it that the tiff between RFU and NZRU over how much an AB test is worth may mean no game till 2018 AIs.

I'm not unhappy with that, tbh. At present, NZ are clearly better than us and I would prefer our young stars learn and develop in still-challenging, yet winnable games against Aus, SA, Arg, etc. Give people like Itoje, Watson, Ford, etc another year and we'll be in a much better position.

Puja

Puja wrote:As Lizard said, the earliest possible date is Autumn 2017, although rumour has it that the tiff between RFU and NZRU over how much an AB test is worth may mean no game till 2018 AIs.

I'm not unhappy with that, tbh. At present, NZ are clearly better than us and I would prefer our young stars learn and develop in still-challenging, yet winnable games against Aus, SA, Arg, etc. Give people like Itoje, Watson, Ford, etc another year and we'll be in a much better position.

Puja

And so will they. They'll be hardened by a test series against the Lions and numerous fights against quality opposition in the 4N. This is a better time to play the ABs than any time in about 7 years.

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:As Lizard said, the earliest possible date is Autumn 2017, although rumour has it that the tiff between RFU and NZRU over how much an AB test is worth may mean no game till 2018 AIs.

I'm not unhappy with that, tbh. At present, NZ are clearly better than us and I would prefer our young stars learn and develop in still-challenging, yet winnable games against Aus, SA, Arg, etc. Give people like Itoje, Watson, Ford, etc another year and we'll be in a much better position.

Puja

And so will they. They'll be hardened by a test series against the Lions and numerous fights against quality opposition in the 4N. This is a better time to play the ABs than any time in about 7 years.

I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:As Lizard said, the earliest possible date is Autumn 2017, although rumour has it that the tiff between RFU and NZRU over how much an AB test is worth may mean no game till 2018 AIs.

I'm not unhappy with that, tbh. At present, NZ are clearly better than us and I would prefer our young stars learn and develop in still-challenging, yet winnable games against Aus, SA, Arg, etc. Give people like Itoje, Watson, Ford, etc another year and we'll be in a much better position.

Puja

And so will they. They'll be hardened by a test series against the Lions and numerous fights against quality opposition in the 4N. This is a better time to play the ABs than any time in about 7 years.

I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

Or England could go the other way and regress when the new coach honeymoon period is over.

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:As Lizard said, the earliest possible date is Autumn 2017, although rumour has it that the tiff between RFU and NZRU over how much an AB test is worth may mean no game till 2018 AIs.

I'm not unhappy with that, tbh. At present, NZ are clearly better than us and I would prefer our young stars learn and develop in still-challenging, yet winnable games against Aus, SA, Arg, etc. Give people like Itoje, Watson, Ford, etc another year and we'll be in a much better position.

Puja

And so will they. They'll be hardened by a test series against the Lions and numerous fights against quality opposition in the 4N. This is a better time to play the ABs than any time in about 7 years.

I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

I think they've got at least as much scope for improvement as you do. There are plenty of greenhorns around their squad. Take Ardie Savea for example. If he becomes the player I think he could be then we'll be seeing something utterly exceptional and relegate the very good Sam Cane to a bit part player. They've also got an entirely new midfield to bed in.

Len wrote:

Puja wrote: I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

Or England could go the other way and regress when the new coach honeymoon period is over.

Or NZ could fall away after their invincibility aura is punctured by a couple of teams. Who knows?

I'm not sure how much of our upswing is due to Eddie - we have got a phenomenal group of young players and, absent the selection errors and abrupt swings of tactics that punctuated the last years of Lancaster, it's not that surprising that they've started to impress.

Puja

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:
And so will they. They'll be hardened by a test series against the Lions and numerous fights against quality opposition in the 4N. This is a better time to play the ABs than any time in about 7 years.

I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

I think they've got at least as much scope for improvement as you do. There are plenty of greenhorns around their squad. Take Ardie Savea for example. If he becomes the player I think he could be then we'll be seeing something utterly exceptional and relegate the very good Sam Cane to a bit part player. They've also got an entirely new midfield to bed in.

Yeah, but there's a lot more room to improve between average and very good, than there is between very good and slightly better. Plus the improvements are much easier to effect from a lower starting position.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Len wrote:

Puja wrote: I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

Or England could go the other way and regress when the new coach honeymoon period is over.

Or NZ could fall away after their invincibility aura is punctured by a couple of teams. Who knows?

I'm not sure how much of our upswing is due to Eddie - we have got a phenomenal group of young players and, absent the selection errors and abrupt swings of tactics that punctuated the last years of Lancaster, it's not that surprising that they've started to impress.

Puja

NZ could lose the aura, but did we between 2011 and 2015? We'll just have to see. Englands 9/10 positions are weak and England are still selecting players like Nowell, who lets be honest isn't that great. And depth?

Len wrote:

Puja wrote:

Len wrote:
Or England could go the other way and regress when the new coach honeymoon period is over.

Or NZ could fall away after their invincibility aura is punctured by a couple of teams. Who knows?

I'm not sure how much of our upswing is due to Eddie - we have got a phenomenal group of young players and, absent the selection errors and abrupt swings of tactics that punctuated the last years of Lancaster, it's not that surprising that they've started to impress.

Puja

NZ could lose the aura, but did we between 2011 and 2015? We'll just have to see. Englands 9/10 positions are weak and England are still selecting players like Nowell, who lets be honest isn't that great. And depth?

Well, you didn't really do much losing between 2011 and 2015!

And yes, we have still got (a lot of) weaknesses right now. That's pretty much exactly why I don't want to play your lot until we've fixed some of them.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Eugene Wrayburn wrote:

Puja wrote:
I'm still comfortable - we've got a much bigger scope for improvement than they do. In 2 years, there's a possibility we could be confronting them as near equals, which I'd prefer to being plucky and trying to catch them unawares.

Puja

I think they've got at least as much scope for improvement as you do. There are plenty of greenhorns around their squad. Take Ardie Savea for example. If he becomes the player I think he could be then we'll be seeing something utterly exceptional and relegate the very good Sam Cane to a bit part player. They've also got an entirely new midfield to bed in.

Yeah, but there's a lot more room to improve between average and very good, than there is between very good and slightly better. Plus the improvements are much easier to effect from a lower starting position.

Puja

I'm afraid from what I've seen in super rugby this year and looking at who's injured they've got plenty of scope to improve as a unit. As comforting as it may be to think "That exceptional team surely can't get much better" I just don't think it's true given that many of the players are at the same stage of development as your players.

Puja wrote:

Len wrote:

Puja wrote:
Or NZ could fall away after their invincibility aura is punctured by a couple of teams. Who knows?

I'm not sure how much of our upswing is due to Eddie - we have got a phenomenal group of young players and, absent the selection errors and abrupt swings of tactics that punctuated the last years of Lancaster, it's not that surprising that they've started to impress.

Puja

NZ could lose the aura, but did we between 2011 and 2015? We'll just have to see. Englands 9/10 positions are weak and England are still selecting players like Nowell, who lets be honest isn't that great. And depth?

Well, you didn't really do much losing between 2011 and 2015!

And yes, we have still got (a lot of) weaknesses right now. That's pretty much exactly why I don't want to play your lot until we've fixed some of them.

Puja

We're lucky something happens to your players after joining the premiership after the U20s.

There is certainly scope for the All Blacks to improve. Of the 4 halves played against Aussie, only one was truly great.

The perfect game is yet to be played.

The first half of Sydney wasn't even that great. It was just good defence and basic catch-and-pass again an Australian team that quickly capitulated. They'll need to be much better on the away legs, and I believe that they will be.

They didn't have to be, because the Wallabies were rudderless and leaderless. It's like the 1998 All Blacks, only the glove is on the other shoe.

Pete FitzSimmons nailed it in his SMH column - while there were many issues with the Wallabies in Wellington and Sydney, there were so many things that could have been fixed on the spot.

The line-outs in particular is where he puts some focus on: Who was calling the line-outs? Why wasn't there a Plan B, when Plan A of throwing long was producing a winning line-out pairing (for the All Blacks) between Moore and Read? Why couldn't they adapt? When did the Wallabies line-out become so shit, when just a few years ago, they were not only competitive, but also schooling much more vaunted line-outs like the Springbok one (which was Botha and Matfield at the time) every now and then? What happened? Moore's got 100+ caps, Pocock, Hooper, Genia and Slipper have experience captaining either the Wallabies or their Super Rugby sides. Why did none of them go "hang on, Steve. Throwing long isn't working. Let's try something else." You'd think one of them would pipe up. Why did no one say "Fuck off Mike, no one should throw to you in the line-outs. You're like Willow compared to their loosies." The line-outs are clearly where the All Blacks targeted the Wallabies, as whenever they stole a Wallabies throw (with apparent ease), they tended to either score from it, or send the Wallabies deep into their own half.

It really points towards a real malaise within the team set-up as it is, with their inability to focus on the basics and sort out their shit when it matters. You don't need to be an amazing team to beat that lot, basically.

Yep. You should mention that to the English.

The Aus v SA legs of the RC will be interesting.