Lions squad named

[Son of Mathonwy]

On the one view I saw, it looked like the archetypical thing that players have been getting red for in the Prem - upright tackle technique and head on head.

Puja

Ditto Kolbe who was lucky not to be red carded twice

The two Kolbe incidents reflect two of my annoyances with the way refs referee. If that 1st "tackle" was by a bigger player like a flanker then it is a red.

The second, they discipline based on the outcome rather than the action. The action was extremely reckless and dangerous so should be a red.

Totally. If a player is tipped over and manages to get an arm to the ground before their head, why should that reduce the punishment for the foul play? It's not fair and it encourages victims of foul play to adopt football/amateur dramatics techniques.

[Son of Mathonwy]

I don't get what Gatland's doing. The side who gets the best results against South Africa are New Zealand, who avoid directly attacking their strength and play a faster game to move their forwards arounds. He picked an initial squad that looked like it might use that - Watson, Russell, Tipuric, Simmonds, Conan, LCD, Price - but we've then gone on to pick almost none of them and just play staid rugby, trying to outmasculine the Boks at close quarters. Surprisingly enough, the Springboks are better at being the Springboks than we are.

Puja

This is all strangely familiar to the Wales fan.

[Sandydragon]

Might as well have a selection punt (assuming everyone is fit):

Jones
George
Furlough
Beard
Itoje
Beirne
Navidi
Faletau
Price
Biggar
Adams
Henshaw
Harris
Watson
Williams

Vunipola
Owens
Sinkler
Henderson
Watson
Davies
Smith
Aki

Thought Mako and LCD were two of our better players yesterday, and frankly Owens was awful off the bench.

I’d move Mako to the bench to accommodate Jones starting purely because I feel Makonis better suited as the impact sub. I’d have no issue with it being the other way round if necessary but those are the two looseheads who should be in the squad.

[Banquo]

Might as well have a selection punt (assuming everyone is fit):

Jones
George
Furlough
Beard
Itoje
Beirne
Navidi
Faletau
Price
Biggar
Adams
Henshaw
Harris
Watson
Williams

Vunipola
Owens
Sinkler
Henderson
Watson
Davies
Smith
Aki

Thought Mako and LCD were two of our better players yesterday, and frankly Owens was awful off the bench.

I’d move Mako to the bench to accommodate Jones starting purely because I feel Makonis better suited as the impact sub. I’d have no issue with it being the other way round if necessary but those are the two looseheads who should be in the squad.

Agreed about the best two loose heads. Think LCD has gone well, and George is a better bet than Owens based on yesterday.

[Digby]

On the one view I saw, it looked like the archetypical thing that players have been getting red for in the Prem - upright tackle technique and head on head.

Puja

Ditto Kolbe who was lucky not to be red carded twice

The two Kolbe incidents reflect two of my annoyances with the way refs referee. If that 1st "tackle" was by a bigger player like a flanker then it is a red.

The second, they discipline based on the outcome rather than the action. The action was extremely reckless and dangerous so should be a red.

Watson had a red card tackle last week and was let off, and he's a flanker. It's possible the chat in the ref's group was to really try and avoid reds period

[Banquo]

I don't get what Gatland's doing. The side who gets the best results against South Africa are New Zealand, who avoid directly attacking their strength and play a faster game to move their forwards arounds. He picked an initial squad that looked like it might use that - Watson, Russell, Tipuric, Simmonds, Conan, LCD, Price - but we've then gone on to pick almost none of them and just play staid rugby, trying to outmasculine the Boks at close quarters. Surprisingly enough, the Springboks are better at being the Springboks than we are.

Puja

This is all strangely familiar to the Wales fan.

He brought you plenty of success from a pretty low point, and has delivered for the Lions more often than not at the moment; but he has to find summat next week.

[Donny osmond]

I don't get what Gatland's doing. The side who gets the best results against South Africa are New Zealand, who avoid directly attacking their strength and play a faster game to move their forwards arounds. He picked an initial squad that looked like it might use that - Watson, Russell, Tipuric, Simmonds, Conan, LCD, Price - but we've then gone on to pick almost none of them and just play staid rugby, trying to outmasculine the Boks at close quarters. Surprisingly enough, the Springboks are better at being the Springboks than we are.

Puja

This is all strangely familiar to the Wales fan.

He brought you plenty of success from a pretty low point, and has delivered for the Lions more often than not at the moment; but he has to find summat next week.

This is what drives me crackers about Gatland more than anything else.

If he, or at least the Lions squad, does find summat next week he'll go down in history as the greatest Lions coach ever.

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[Beasties]

Ditto Kolbe who was lucky not to be red carded twice

The two Kolbe incidents reflect two of my annoyances with the way refs referee. If that 1st "tackle" was by a bigger player like a flanker then it is a red.

The second, they discipline based on the outcome rather than the action. The action was extremely reckless and dangerous so should be a red.

Totally. If a player is tipped over and manages to get an arm to the ground before their head, why should that reduce the punishment for the foul play? It's not fair and it encourages victims of foul play to adopt football/amateur dramatics techniques.

Just finished watching and I'm amazed at the lack of comment up til now on this. Two absolute nailed on reds for Kolbe, not even worth debating. SA would still have beaten us anyway though, so there is that we can at least say we were thumped by 15 rather than 14.

[Banquo]

This is all strangely familiar to the Wales fan.

He brought you plenty of success from a pretty low point, and has delivered for the Lions more often than not at the moment; but he has to find summat next week.

This is what drives me crackers about Gatland more than anything else.

If he, or at least the Lions squad, does find summat next week he'll go down in history as the greatest Lions coach ever.

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He's a pretty good percentages coach. He was excellent at improving players for Wales,and at identfying strengths and weaknesses and playing with them or working round them with good tactics/plans.

[Beasties]

Well Gats, what will you do for the decider? The bokke have hit their form and the scrum was awful, so too the management of high ball.

How many changes will he make? There is no point bringing Farrell down to chase a game. Either start him or have Smith on the bench. AWJ May have to stand aside next weekens, although not the only forward to go missing in the second half.

Sutherland is a penalty waiting to happen. A good player but he can’t be in the squad again.

Furlong was struggling, the SA tighthead was also getting away with murder, but Mako did OK. The scrum really struggled when Mostert went to 6- funnily enough, PSDT going off forced a couple of changes which worked really well for them.

Back three has to change; but imo we don't have any midfield combo that will enable us to radically change the game, plus we have struggled wide at the breakdown. Difficult to see how they can roll the dice in a week, with no other game plan remotely practiced.

Kishoff is a very very good scrummager, Furlong had his hands full there. Mako however doesn't make any impression on quality THs, never has done although he has managed to bring his scrummaging up to slightly past meh but no futher.

There were two scums in a row in the 2nd half where SA ran round the corner on two Lions putins. The ref had to move sharpish to get out of the way both times but saw no blame, did make me chuckle that. SA defo had the measure of the scrum and the reffing.

[Donny osmond]

He brought you plenty of success from a pretty low point, and has delivered for the Lions more often than not at the moment; but he has to find summat next week.

This is what drives me crackers about Gatland more than anything else.

If he, or at least the Lions squad, does find summat next week he'll go down in history as the greatest Lions coach ever.

Sent from my CPH2195 using Tapatalk

He's a pretty good percentages coach. He was excellent at improving players for Wales,and at identfying strengths and weaknesses and playing with them or working round them with good tactics/plans.

Oh I get that he has strengths and can get the best out of players, he's clearly amazing in some areas of coaching/managing players.

But his teams do play shit rugby. But if they win does that matter?

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[Big D]

Ditto Kolbe who was lucky not to be red carded twice

The two Kolbe incidents reflect two of my annoyances with the way refs referee. If that 1st "tackle" was by a bigger player like a flanker then it is a red.

The second, they discipline based on the outcome rather than the action. The action was extremely reckless and dangerous so should be a red.

Watson had a red card tackle last week and was let off, and he's a flanker. It's possible the chat in the ref's group was to really try and avoid reds period

Wrong tackle. The 1st Kolbe "tackle" was the one a flanker 100% would have been off for.

Watson tackle should be a red but like the Kolbe 2nd incident is not the way those tackles are reffed. It is down to where the player lands which is wrong.

[Big D]

I've seen a few calls elsewhere for Russell but with 90min under his belt in the last 8 weeks it would be a huge ask.

[Digby]

We have seen players red carded when the tackled player has to put out a hand to save being tipped onto their head/shoulder, so some of those tackles are reffed that way. And I'm merely noting saying a flanker would have been sent off when last week the Lions oddly escaped a flanker being off looks odd.

[Banquo]

Well Gats, what will you do for the decider? The bokke have hit their form and the scrum was awful, so too the management of high ball.

How many changes will he make? There is no point bringing Farrell down to chase a game. Either start him or have Smith on the bench. AWJ May have to stand aside next weekens, although not the only forward to go missing in the second half.

Sutherland is a penalty waiting to happen. A good player but he can’t be in the squad again.

Furlong was struggling, the SA tighthead was also getting away with murder, but Mako did OK. The scrum really struggled when Mostert went to 6- funnily enough, PSDT going off forced a couple of changes which worked really well for them.

Back three has to change; but imo we don't have any midfield combo that will enable us to radically change the game, plus we have struggled wide at the breakdown. Difficult to see how they can roll the dice in a week, with no other game plan remotely practiced.

Kishoff is a very very good scrummager, Furlong had his hands full there. Mako however doesn't make any impression on quality THs, never has done although he has managed to bring his scrummaging up to slightly past meh but no futher.

There were two scums in a row in the 2nd half where SA ran round the corner on two Lions putins. The ref had to move sharpish to get out of the way both times but saw no blame, did make me chuckle that. SA defo had the measure of the scrum and the reffing.

as I said.....Mako did ok, when questions are always asked. His loose play is superb, as is his lifting.

[Digby]

I've seen a few calls elsewhere for Russell but with 90min under his belt in the last 8 weeks it would be a huge ask.

Does seem odd to allow Townsend both DVM and Hogg as the double out the back option and then pick Biggar. Townsend has barely had any ball run to even see if his plans could find gaps in the SA defence, and Biggar has never looked a 10 to really go the line at pace and pick the right option out

I'd have almost expected Russell, DVM and Hogg, or Biggar, Adams and Williams

As is the Lions look like the plan was to hope Manu was fit to at least breach the first up defence, and even then it's a hard working scramble to get past

[Banquo]

This is what drives me crackers about Gatland more than anything else.

If he, or at least the Lions squad, does find summat next week he'll go down in history as the greatest Lions coach ever.

Sent from my CPH2195 using Tapatalk

He's a pretty good percentages coach. He was excellent at improving players for Wales,and at identfying strengths and weaknesses and playing with them or working round them with good tactics/plans.

Oh I get that he has strengths and can get the best out of players, he's clearly amazing in some areas of coaching/managing players.

But his teams do play shit rugby. But if they win does that matter?

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Not at international level, and almost certainly not in how Gatland has been assessed by various bosses. In fairness, Wasps played decent stuff under him.

[Timbo]

Furlong was struggling, the SA tighthead was also getting away with murder, but Mako did OK. The scrum really struggled when Mostert went to 6- funnily enough, PSDT going off forced a couple of changes which worked really well for them.

Back three has to change; but imo we don't have any midfield combo that will enable us to radically change the game, plus we have struggled wide at the breakdown. Difficult to see how they can roll the dice in a week, with no other game plan remotely practiced.

Kishoff is a very very good scrummager, Furlong had his hands full there. Mako however doesn't make any impression on quality THs, never has done although he has managed to bring his scrummaging up to slightly past meh but no futher.

There were two scums in a row in the 2nd half where SA ran round the corner on two Lions putins. The ref had to move sharpish to get out of the way both times but saw no blame, did make me chuckle that. SA defo had the measure of the scrum and the reffing.

as I said.....Mako did ok, when questions are always asked. His loose play is superb, as is his lifting.

Mako has been part of plenty of dominant scrums across his career. On this tour he’s had a very good, even contest against arguably the best scrummaging tighthead on the planet in Malherbe.

Mako seems to match up well with Malherbe at the moment for whatever reason, so whether he is on the bench or in the starting team might come down to second guessing the Saffa front row selection. Hope Wyn Jones is fit because Sutherland seems to be really struggling.

[Big D]

We have seen players red carded when the tackled player has to put out a hand to save being tipped onto their head/shoulder, so some of those tackles are reffed that way. And I'm merely noting saying a flanker would have been sent off when last week the Lions oddly escaped a flanker being off looks odd.

It isn't odd really as they are two separate types of tackles. One type of tackle has had very specific guidelines issued and been reffed mostly to the letter.

The Watson tackle resembles the 2nd in that how the tackled player lands is down to luck and World Rugby penalise on the outcome rather than offence. I can't think of anytime at elite level a tip tackle like Watsons, where a player has broken their own fall, has lead to a red. Most have said/admitted it was at least a yellow.

All year we have seen head contact reffed pretty strictly. If a forward had made that type of tackle that lead to head on head contact they'd be sent off. Because Kolbe is a midget he got away with it, as did Faf in the A game (yellow rather than red).

[Banquo]

Kishoff is a very very good scrummager, Furlong had his hands full there. Mako however doesn't make any impression on quality THs, never has done although he has managed to bring his scrummaging up to slightly past meh but no futher.

There were two scums in a row in the 2nd half where SA ran round the corner on two Lions putins. The ref had to move sharpish to get out of the way both times but saw no blame, did make me chuckle that. SA defo had the measure of the scrum and the reffing.

as I said.....Mako did ok, when questions are always asked. His loose play is superb, as is his lifting.

Mako has been part of plenty of dominant scrums across his career. On this tour he’s had a very good, even contest against arguably the best scrummaging tighthead on the planet in Malherbe.

Mako seems to match up well with Malherbe at the moment for whatever reason, so whether he is on the bench or in the starting team might come down to second guessing the Saffa front row selection. Hope Wyn Jones is fit because Sutherland seems to be really struggling.

I also thought Malherbe got away with murder on his angles, and Mako did well to contain that, though it will have rippled across.

[Spiffy]

Agree with all who think there should be several changes for next week. But given Gatland's past and mind set, we will probably see a mostly same-again selection, with the hope that they will just perform better. The Lions will not change their game plan drastically for the last test. Even if they get adequate ball they just don't have the players in the backs to dent the Boks by playing expansive rugby. Only Henshaw has looked remotely competitive and the Bok defence, anchored by a couple of large, powerful hard men in the centre, looks very solid.
The game calls out for different Lions tactics, but they don't look to have the capacity to change much.

[morepork]

That was unbelievably grim. Worst possible advertisment for the game. So relentlessly negative.

[Digby]

We have seen players red carded when the tackled player has to put out a hand to save being tipped onto their head/shoulder, so some of those tackles are reffed that way. And I'm merely noting saying a flanker would have been sent off when last week the Lions oddly escaped a flanker being off looks odd.

It isn't odd really as they are two separate types of tackles. One type of tackle has had very specific guidelines issued and been reffed mostly to the letter.

The Watson tackle resembles the 2nd in that how the tackled player lands is down to luck and World Rugby penalise on the outcome rather than offence. I can't think of anytime at elite level a tip tackle like Watsons, where a player has broken their own fall, has lead to a red. Most have said/admitted it was at least a yellow.

All year we have seen head contact reffed pretty strictly. If a forward had made that type of tackle that lead to head on head contact they'd be sent off. Because Kolbe is a midget he got away with it, as did Faf in the A game (yellow rather than red).

I was pretty sure if a player puts an arm out to control their fall and otherwise would have landed on their head that is deemed to have seen a player land on their head and it's a red card. If they've changed the guidelines for what Watson did such it's not a red I've not seen that, though it's quite possible, odd because it'd be withdrawing an incentive to protect the player being tackled but I guess rugby admins do do some odd things

[Digby]

Agree with all who think there should be several changes for next week. But given Gatland's past and mind set, we will probably see a mostly same-again selection, with the hope that they will just perform better. The Lions will not change their game plan drastically for the last test. Even if they get adequate ball they just don't have the players in the backs to dent the Boks by playing expansive rugby. Only Henshaw has looked remotely competitive and the Bok defence, anchored by a couple of large, powerful hard men in the centre, looks very solid.
The game calls out for different Lions tactics, but they don't look to have the capacity to change much.

His past mindset includes the decision to drop someone like BOD. There's plenty to criticise Gats with without suggesting he's not willing to change selection, indeed the 2nd test itself saw changes in selection.

[Mikey Brown]

It doesn’t have to be expansive. There are a million variations of something resembling rugby that could be played before considering a style you’d call expansive. We absolutely do have players that are capable of this.

Have Gatland and his team got the desire to try and shift them around a bit, maybe even go more than 2 phases before hoofing it away? I dunno.

Even a token gesture of variation might put a hint of doubt in the minds of the Bokke defence? It’s as if any aspirations to attack died when Am murdered Daly about 4 seconds in to the first test.