RugbyRebels

morepork wrote:How many more games, against different opposition, would the 5/6N teams have had relative to us dahn sarf? I assume Wales is meant to be 1997 and not 1907? France have had a long time to change hairstyles since their record run.

1907-1912 is correct for Wales.

Total number of home games:
England: 380 (68% success rate - 3rd ranked by this measure)
Wales: 375 (62% - 5th)
France: 367 (65% - 4th)
Scotland: 358 (55% - 7th)
Ireland: 355 (55% - 8th)
Australia: 322 (59% - 6th)
New Zealand: 282 (85% - 1st)
South Africa: 255 (72% -2nd)
Italy: 221 (45% - 10th)
Argentina: 208 (50% - 9th)

Lizard wrote:

morepork wrote:How many more games, against different opposition, would the 5/6N teams have had relative to us dahn sarf? I assume Wales is meant to be 1997 and not 1907? France have had a long time to change hairstyles since their record run.

1907-1912 is correct for Wales.

Total number of home games:
England: 380 (68% success rate - 3rd ranked by this measure)
Wales: 375 (62% - 5th)
France: 367 (65% - 4th)
Scotland: 358 (55% - 7th)
Ireland: 355 (55% - 8th)
Australia: 322 (59% - 6th)
New Zealand: 282 (85% - 1st)
South Africa: 255 (72% -2nd)
Italy: 221 (45% - 10th)
Argentina: 208 (50% - 9th)

sorry....my addled brain read "2012". 1912.....my god, there were no people back then.

Prompted by Namibia's encouraging result against Uruguay in the current Nations Cup, here are all the teams that have played in a RWC without recording a win*, ranked by the number of matches played:

19: Namibia (1999, 2003, 2007, 2011, 2015)**
6: Zimbabwe (1987, 1991)
4: Portugal (2007)
4: Russia (2011)**
3: Ivory Coast (1995)
3: Spain (1999)

Spain has the unique record of having played in a RWC without ever scoring a try.

*There are no winless teams that have played in a RWC draw.
**Qualified for RWC2019

So it looks like the All Blacks will enter RWC with Barrett (42 starts at 10 to date), Mo'unga (3) and Josh Ioane (0) as our top 3 1st 5/8s.

Bit of a worry?

Since Barrett debuted (off the bench in the 23rd minute for Cruden v Ireland, 2012), the All Blacks have used:
3 other 1st 5/8s who debuted before Cruden and are now retired (Carter 25 caps/24 starts, Cruden 30/23, Slade 3/0)
3 others who for one reason or another are not in consideration for the RWC (Taylor 2/1 - went to France, Sopoaga 7/2 - went to UK, MacKenzie 2/1 - injured)
Mo'unga (5/3).

So that's 74 non-Barrett caps at 1st 5/8, only 5 which will be available for RWC2019.

I know there's no accounting for heirs-apparent who chase foreign cash (as is their good right), but that's piss-poor development right there.

All Blacks who had their test debut at a World Cup:

1987: John Gallagher*, Richard Loe*, Zinzan Brooke, Bernie McCahill.
(A very solid bunch)

1991: Jon Preston, Graham Purvis*, Inga Tuigamala*, Jason Hewett, Shayne Philpott*
(2nd stringers at best, apart from Inga. Hewett and Philpott were never capped again after playing 1 and 2 matches respectively at this RWC)

1995: Norm Hewitt*, Eric Rush*, Simon Culhane
(again, 2nd stringers all of them. Culhane did score 45 pts in the 145-17 mauling of Japan, which remains the record for a player on debut and at a RWC – the only 3 higher individual tallies have been in matches Jap v Taiwan, Arg v Paraguay, and HK v Singapore)

1999: Rhys Duggan
(got his only cap v Italy)

2003: Corey Flynn, Ben Atiga
(Atiga’s whole All Black career consisted solely of the last 6 minutes of the 91-7 hammering dished out to Tonga)

*Previously played tour matches but had no test caps


So I think it’s fair to say that 1987 and Samoan mould-breaking freaks aside, throwing untried players into All Black World Cup squads is usually not great for their careers.

Inspired by a thread on the EMB.

Most tries scored for each 6N/RC country

SPOILER ALERT - try and guess these first....
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Argentina: Jose Nunez Piossek (29/28)*
Australia: David Campese (64 tries/101 caps)
England: Rory Underwood (49/85)**
France: Serge Blanco (38/93)***
Ireland: Brian O'Driscoll (46/133)
Italy: Marcello Cuttitta (25/54)****
New Zealand: Doug Howlett (49/62)
Scotland: Ian Smith (24/32), Tony Stanger (24/52)*****
South Africa: Bryan Habana (67/124)
Wales: Shane Williams (58/87)

These exclude tries/caps for the Lions

*I couldn't remember his name but knew it was a guy who scored heaps in the South American championship. JNP picked up 9 tries in one match v Paraguay, and 21 in his total of 7 matches v Para- and Uruguay.
**I guessed Robinson
***I guessed Sella
****I had no idea but took a stab at Parisse. Cuttita played entirely in the pre-6N era. Only 1 player in the Italian top 10 try scorers has played only in the 6N era.
****I had no clue at all but guessed Visser. Smith played 1924-33 and Stanger '89-'98. Total indictment of Scots rugby that no-one's beaten Smith yet.

While I'm at it - the runners up:
Arg: D Cuesta Silva (28/63, -1)
Aust: C Latham (40/78, -24)
Eng: B Cohen (31/57, -18); W Greenwood (31/55 -18)
France: V Clerc (34/67, -4)
Ireland: T Bowe (30/69, -16), K Earls (30/77, -16)
Italy: P Vaccari (22/64)
NZ: C Cullen (46/58, -3)
Scot: C Paterson (22/109, -2)*
SA: J van der Westhuizen (38/89 -29)
Wales: G Thomas (40/100 -18)

*Imagine playing nearly three and a half times as many tests as Smith, and only scoring 2 fewer tries!

And highest by current players:
Arg: J Tuculet (16/53)
Aust: AAC (37/117)*
Eng: J May (24/45)
Fra: W Fofana (15/46)
Ireland: K Earls (30/77)
Ita: S Parisse (15/138)
NZ: B Smith (33/78)
Scot: S Hogg (19/67), T Seymour (19/50)**
SA: K Kriel (12/42), W le Roux (12/54)
Wales: G North (36/83)

*The homophobe is also on 37 but I don't count him as a current test player
**Maybe things are looking up!

same as you Liz, got 5/10. I had Cullen for NZ, sorry Doug. Got Habana, Blanco, Rory, Campese and Williams.

Lizard wrote:While I'm at it - the runners up:
Arg: D Cuesta Silva (28/63, -1)
Aust: C Latham (40/78, -24)
Eng: B Cohen (31/57, -18); W Greenwood (31/55 -18)
France: V Clerc (34/67, -4)
Ireland: T Bowe (30/69, -16), K Earls (30/77, -16)
Italy: P Vaccari (22/64)
NZ: C Cullen (46/58, -3)
Scot: C Paterson (22/109, -2)*
SA: J van der Westhuizen (38/89 -29)
Wales: G Thomas (40/100 -18)

*Imagine playing nearly three and a half times as many tests as Smith, and only scoring 2 fewer tries!

Paterson had the odd distinction of being the only British or Irish test centurion to never play for the Lions, until he had to share that dubious honour with Sean Lamont.

cashead wrote:

Lizard wrote:While I'm at it - the runners up:
Arg: D Cuesta Silva (28/63, -1)
Aust: C Latham (40/78, -24)
Eng: B Cohen (31/57, -18); W Greenwood (31/55 -18)
France: V Clerc (34/67, -4)
Ireland: T Bowe (30/69, -16), K Earls (30/77, -16)
Italy: P Vaccari (22/64)
NZ: C Cullen (46/58, -3)
Scot: C Paterson (22/109, -2)*
SA: J van der Westhuizen (38/89 -29)
Wales: G Thomas (40/100 -18)

*Imagine playing nearly three and a half times as many tests as Smith, and only scoring 2 fewer tries!

Paterson had the odd distinction of being the only British or Irish test centurion to never play for the Lions, until he had to share that dubious honour with Sean Lamont.

First reaction - Paterson never played for the Lions? That seems awfully unfair - he was pretty good.

Second reaction - wait, Lamont got 100 caps?!

Puja

Lizard wrote: Scotland: Ian Smith (24/32), 1924-33 Total

that record stood until 1987!

And all scored in home/5 nations...that stood as the record for home/5 nations/6 nations until 2011 or something....and he still has the joint record for tries in a single season in those competitions with 8...

Scotland are dogshit, that's why...

Ok - today’s challenge (no Google allowed) - name the top points scorers for each 6N/RC team.

My guesses:
Arg: I’ll say Porta but it’s probably some semi-pro who kicked eleventy thousand conversions v Paraguay
Aust: Shit. Lynagh?
Eng: Wilko, obvs.
Fra: No. Fucking. Clue.
Ire: is it O’Gara? It’s O’Gara, right?
Ita: Who cares. Probably Parisse - he does everything else for the team by himself.
NZ: Carter, obvs.
Sco: Paterson, he was the only Scot who scored for a about a decade
Wales: Still Jenkins, innit?
SA: Hmm. I should know this. Morne Steyn?

Argentina - Maybe it's Contepomi? (Nope. Got the caps, but someone else has the points record).
Australia: Pretty sure it's still Lynagh.
England: It's Wilkinson. I'm pretty sure Farrell, Jr. is pretty close.
France: Going out on a limb here, and gonna guess Lamaison. (Googled it, and it was someone else. Also, the points total is hilariously low for a top-tier test team).
Ireland: It's Ronan. I think he was the second or third guy to get the big 4-digits.
Italy: Diego Dominguez?
New Zealand: Carter is the record test point scorer, so yeah, boy I wonder just whom it may be. The world will never know.
Scotland: Paterson or BIG GAV! Probably Paterson. He was around long enough.
Wales: I think it's still Jenkins.
South Africa: Pretty sure Montgomery took the record in around 2004 or 2005. Ended with a respectable haul as well. Naas Botha was the previous record holder with just under 400, and Monty more than doubled that, IIRC.

Yeah, this one's a little easier.

Dunno Argentina. Is France Michalak for some unknown reason?
Eng wilko
Ire ogara
Sco paterson
Wal jenkins
Italy dominguez
NZ carter
SA montgomery
Aus is it Burke?

SPOILER ALERT: Here's the answers...
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Arg: Sanchez 720
Aust: Lynagh 911
Eng: Wilkinson 1179 (+67 for Lions).
Fra: Michalak 436
Ire: O’Gara 1083 (didn't score for Lions)
Ita: Dominguez 983 (+27 for Argentina)
NZ: Carter 1598
Sco: Paterson 809
Wales: Jenkins 1049 (+41 for Lions)
SA: Montgomery 893

Sanchez has 0 points in his 1 appearance against Uruguay and has 126 n NZ (more than any other opponent) so I owe him an apology. Porta is on 590 (+66 for South America) also behind Contepomi if you don't recognize Sth America as the Pumas in disguise to avoid Apartheid-related issues.
Cas is right that Freddy's total for France is hilarious, and Stom is right that it is not clear how or why he is their top scorer. It is even more remarkable given that France have tried 21 other starting fly-halves during his career (I shit you not - twenty-fucking-one)
I probably should have got Dominguez TBF.
I try to forget Montgomery existed. Steyn is second for SA on 736.

Before we have a laugh at Michalak's low points total compared to everyone else, let's also not forget to chortle sensibly at the fact that Naas Botha was the record point scorer for South Africa on a paltry 312 points until Monty overtook him around 05 or 06.

Eng: Wilkinson
Wal: Jenkins
Ire: ROG
Sco: Paterson
Fra: Lamaison
Ita: Dominguez
SA: Mongomery
NZ: Carter
Aus: Lynagh (nagging voice saying Mortlock for some reason)
Arg: Porta

Bwgr - Michalak. Of course

cashead wrote:Before we have a laugh at Michalak's low points total compared to everyone else, let's also not forget to chortle sensibly at the fact that Naas Botha was the record point scorer for South Africa on a paltry 312 points until Monty overtook him around 05 or 06.

As much as I hate to say it about a racist-era Springbok, let's be fair to Naas Botha. He was one of he most prolific scorers of his time.

His career spanned two interesting eras of the game - the isolation of SA due to Apartheid, and the beginning of shamatuerism. So he played relatively few games for his time, and even fewer compared to those who came just after him or played a bit longer.

You can divide Botha's career into 3 eras:
Pre-isolation (1980-81): Botha played 15 matches in this period, for 150 points. By the end of this era, the record points scorer was Porta with 198 in 38 matches. Botha was 11th in the world. No-one else in the top 17 had played fewer tests than Botha and he was on track to take the record.

Isolation (1982-1991) SA capped against only rebel teams (NZ Cavaliers) and weird non-national selections (South America, World XV). Botha played only 8 tests in a decade, scoring 118 points averaging 14.7. No other player with 8 or more caps in this era scored at a higher rate than Botha except Grant Fox averaging 15.0 with 525 points in 35 tests. By the end of this era, the record holder was Lynagh, with 689 in 53 tests. Botha actually increased his ranking to 10th on 268 off 23 (no one in the top 22 had fewer caps). If Naas had played 29 more tests in this decade, scoring at the same rate, he would have been the record holder by the end of it. For comparison, in that period, Lynagh played 53, Fox 35, Hastings 40, Porta 28, Blanco 83.

Post-isolation (1992) Botha was 34. He ha't played a test in 3 years. He then faced NZ, Australia, France x2 and England (i.e. the four best other teams in the world) and still scored 42 points in those 5 tests. That was 7th highest for the year, despite others playing up to 10 tests that year, and facing weaker oppostion.

NZ's biggest margins of defeat
21: v Aust 2019 (26-47)
21: v Aust 1999 (7-28)
17: v SA 1928 (0-17)*
17: v Eng 2012 (21-38)
16: v Aus 1980 (10-26)

*conceded one 3-pt try, 2 3-pt pens and a 4-pt DG

NZ's highest scores conceded
47: v Aust 2019 (scored 26)
46: v SA 2000 (40)
43: v France 1999 (31)
42: v France 2000 (33)
40: v Ire 2016 (29)
40: v SA 2004 (26)

NZ has never won a match conceding 38 or more.

NZ most tries conceded
6: v Aust 2019
6: v SA 2000
5: 9 times (4x SA, 3x AU, Ire, Japan)

Uncapped NZ XVs have conceded 6 v a capped Romania (1991) and v NSW retrospectively capped as Aussie (1924).

Since the last world cup:

NZ (highest ranked team in the RWC) has lost to SA
SA has lost to Italy
Italy has lost to Tonga
Tonga has lost to Georgia
Georgia has lost to Romania
Romania has lost to Uruguay
Uruguay has lost to Namibia (Lowest ranked team in RWC)

Lizard wrote:Since the last world cup:

NZ (highest ranked team in the RWC) has lost to SA
SA has lost to Italy
Italy has lost to Tonga
Tonga has lost to Georgia
Georgia has lost to Romania
Romania has lost to Uruguay
Uruguay has lost to Namibia (Lowest ranked team in RWC)

Hah, that's good. Namibia to top the pool?

What's the lowest ranked side that each of the top 10 have lost to in the last 4 years? New Zealand would be Australia (6th) and South Africa would be Italy (not sure).

Puja

Puja wrote:

Lizard wrote:Since the last world cup:

NZ (highest ranked team in the RWC) has lost to SA
SA has lost to Italy
Italy has lost to Tonga
Tonga has lost to Georgia
Georgia has lost to Romania
Romania has lost to Uruguay
Uruguay has lost to Namibia (Lowest ranked team in RWC)

Hah, that's good. Namibia to top the pool?

What's the lowest ranked side that each of the top 10 have lost to in the last 4 years? New Zealand would be Australia (6th) and South Africa would be Italy (not sure).

Puja

On current rankings, since RWC2015:
NZ (1) lost to Aussie (6)
Wales (2) to Pumas (11)
Ireland (3) to France (8)
England (4) to France (8)
SA (5) to Italy (13)
Aussie (6) to Pumas (11)
Scotland (7) to USA (14)
France (8) to Pumas (11)
Japan (9) to Fiji (10)
Fiji (10) to Tonga (15)

And for a bit of completeness:

Pumas (11) to France (8)

It's a bit weird that Argentina are ranked below Japan (who hasn't beaten them since 1998) and Fiji (last won in 1987)