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Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:21 pm
by Puja
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:05 pm
So, Lawrence CAN be effective at 12 then??
Spoken with the same tone of voice as "See, I told you that you can use the handle of a screwdriver to bang in a nail - we don't need a hammer!"
Puja
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:44 pm
by p/d
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:07 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:54 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:05 pm
So, Lawrence CAN be effective at 12 then??
mostly effective wider , and he wont enjoy the defensive review....
Yeah, he will have enjoyed the adulation post the Ireland game. Guessing there won't be as much this time round in terms of defence.
I imagine he is grounded enough not to be toasting positive comments in the press…. Likewise Freeman and Underhill . Though I believe they are more than able playing 11 and 7 respectively
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:02 am
by Spiffy
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:54 pm
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:05 pm
So, Lawrence CAN be effective at 12 then??
mostly effective wider , and he wont enjoy the defensive review....
I think that England should stick with Lawrence at 12 and give him a run of games.. He is a powerful runner and it seems to suit Ford's game. He can work on the Felix Jones defence along with his teammates and will probably get it sorted OK. Also, no obvious alternative who plays in the same way is sticking up a hand. Better to tinker with 13 (see above discussion.)
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:26 am
by Which Tyler
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:05 pm
So, Lawrence CAN be effective at 12 then??
Did anyone say otherwise?
Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:02 amI think that England should stick with Lawrence at 12 and give him a run of games.. He is a powerful runner and it seems to suit Ford's game. He can work on the Felix Jones defence along with his teammates and will probably get it sorted OK. Also, no obvious alternative who plays in the same way is sticking up a hand. Better to tinker with 13 (see above discussion.)
Isn't moving Lawrence to his better position of 13 also tinkering with 13? (whilst still giving Ford a centre like Lawrence to play with)
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:17 am
by Mikey Brown
But then we might be stuck having to develop a natural 12.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:22 am
by Oakboy
I see no reason to change my view that Freeman is the long-term answer at 13. He will be better there than Lawrence can be. Conversely, I think Lawrence can be better at 12 than he can be at 13 anyway. The combination of Lawrence and Slade (as they showed last year) are probably our best current centre pairing. The natural development process started with Freeman on the wing in a roving role but eventually surpassing Slade for the 13 shirt strikes me as exactly right.
Of course, Lawrence needs to develop his defence. The 10/12 area is always targetted and a lot depends on the 10's tackling ability (i.e. not just defensive alignment).
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:24 am
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 5:26 am
Oakboy wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 8:05 pm
So, Lawrence CAN be effective at 12 then??
Did anyone say otherwise?
Spiffy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:02 amI think that England should stick with Lawrence at 12 and give him a run of games.. He is a powerful runner and it seems to suit Ford's game. He can work on the Felix Jones defence along with his teammates and will probably get it sorted OK. Also, no obvious alternative who plays in the same way is sticking up a hand. Better to tinker with 13 (see above discussion.)
Isn't moving Lawrence to his better position of 13 also tinkering with 13? (whilst still giving Ford a centre like Lawrence to play with)
....think he looks better when he is at 13, which he quite often was in the last couple of games. His defence at actual inside centre was iffy. Slade tbf has played well, esp going forward, last 2 games.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:26 am
by Banquo
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:17 am
But then we might be stuck having to develop a natural 12.
...what, like the guy who played 12 in the first 2 games of the 6N?
What do you mean by a 'natural 12'....there are at least a couple of 'models' of what this might look like tbf, also if you have to develop them, are they natural
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:32 am
by Banquo
Oakboy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:22 am
I see no reason to change my view that Freeman is the long-term answer at 13. He will be better there than Lawrence can be. Conversely, I think Lawrence can be better at 12 than he can be at 13 anyway. The combination of Lawrence and Slade (as they showed last year) are probably our best current centre pairing. The natural development process started with Freeman on the wing in a roving role but eventually surpassing Slade for the 13 shirt strikes me as exactly right.
Of course, Lawrence needs to develop his defence. The 10/12 area is always targetted and a lot depends on the 10's tackling ability (i.e. not just defensive alignment).
You are basing this on what, maximum of 5 games viewing? Saints currently aren't planning on using him much at 13. He does look decent at 13 I grant you, but personally I think using him in the back three, in a roving role would be a better use of what he can do.
Lawrence to me looks miles happier at 13 and miles more effective as a runner- though I'm glad you are finally seeing the benefit of a physical gainline runner at 12
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 8:36 am
by Banquo
p/d wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:44 pm
FKAS wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 10:07 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Mon Mar 18, 2024 9:54 pm
mostly effective wider , and he wont enjoy the defensive review....
Yeah, he will have enjoyed the adulation post the Ireland game. Guessing there won't be as much this time round in terms of defence.
I imagine he is grounded enough not to be toasting positive comments in the press…. Likewise Freeman and Underhill . Though I believe they are more than able playing 11 and 7 respectively
Freeman won't enjoy the defensive review either....Underhill is a 7, so you'd expect that really.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:15 am
by Which Tyler
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:17 am
But then we might be stuck having to develop a natural 12.
We've a few coming on line over the next couple of years.
Kelly needs to find form
Dingwall needs to actually get some game time at IC
Hartley needs 12 months of rugby
Ojomoh needs to get more game time and maybe stop trying too hard
SAtkinson needs to have a team around him that's playing well
Either way TBH, the way Slade and Lawrence played together, and built an understanding with each other - I'm in no rush to tinker with the unit - we've reached the heights of "functional", with a ceiling of "decent" as a unit. I'd like to see a 2nd choice for each centre shirt, with a view of them having a higher ceiling in a few years time.
Front row is a higher priority for me, then deciding on who we want in the backrow, and what we want them to do, and bedding in the back3 more firmly. Backups at 5, 9 and back3 are pretty high priority as well.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:16 am
by Oakboy
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:15 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:17 am
But then we might be stuck having to develop a natural 12.
We've a few coming on line over the next couple of years.
Kelly needs to find form
Dingwall needs to actually get some game time at IC
Hartley needs 12 months of rugby
Ojomoh needs to get more game time and maybe stop trying too hard
SAtkinson needs to have a team around him that's playing well
Either way TBH, the way Slade and Lawrence played together, and built an understanding with each other - I'm in no rush to tinker with the unit - we've reached the heights of "functional", with a ceiling of "decent" as a unit. I'd like to see a 2nd choice for each centre shirt, with a view of them having a higher ceiling in a few years time.
Front row is a higher priority for me, then deciding on who we want in the backrow, and what we want them to do, and bedding in the back3 more firmly. Backups at 5, 9 and back3 are pretty high priority as well.
I agree wth all of that but I have reservations about each of the centre options that you mention. It's a case of genuinely wanting to be wrong whilst suspecting that none have what it takes to be quality internationals. We might need to look to the next group in line and there's our problem. Will the next ones get game time if the batch you mention develop into (or return to, in some cases) being 'just' good club players?
One exception to the 'armchair favourites' seems to have been IFW who has been advocated and praised across the board. I suppose judging good candidates from those who don't have such visible impact will always be an issue.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:49 am
by Captainhaircut
The main issue I have with the Slade/Lawrence partnership is that Slade is often in at first receiver. I’m not sure we have another centre who can perform that role and we certainly don’t have anyone who can do that while defending the 13 channel as we do.
If Slade got injured, what would the solution be? Recut the whole attack? Move Lawrence to 13 (where he becomes one of our most important defenders in a foreign system) and bring in a distributor at 12?
I’m not 100% sure what the answer is but I feel Hartley/Atkinson/Kelly/Ojomoh could possibly play first receiver which in my mind means we have to move Lawrence to 13 so he can get used to defending there (with Freeman a powerful alternative plus Spink/Marchant if they come back).
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:50 am
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:15 am
Mikey Brown wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 7:17 am
But then we might be stuck having to develop a natural 12.
1- Dingwall needs to actually get some game time at IC
2- Hartley needs 12 months of rugby
1-:lol:
for England, yes
2- he played for Ampthill last week.....
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:54 am
by Banquo
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:49 am
The main issue I have with the Slade/Lawrence partnership is that Slade is often in at first receiver. I’m not sure we have another centre who can perform that role and we certainly don’t have anyone who can do that while defending the 13 channel as we do.
If Slade got injured, what would the solution be? Recut the whole attack? Move Lawrence to 13 (where he becomes one of our most important defenders in a foreign system) and bring in a distributor at 12?
I’m not 100% sure what the answer is but I feel Hartley/Atkinson/Kelly/Ojomoh could possibly play first receiver which in my mind means we have to move Lawrence to 13 so he can get used to defending there (with Freeman a powerful alternative plus Spink/Marchant if they come back).
I guess you mean Lawrence at 13 used to defending this system there, as he has played most of his rugby at 13 (81%, and of the 19% at 12, a huge chunk has been in this 6N!). Dingwall regularly performs that kind of distributor role for Saints btw.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:23 pm
by p/d
Just go for 12 Lawrence 13 Freeman
Or (as it should be) Atkinson and Lawrence
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:28 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:50 am2- he played for Ampthill last week.....
Who else should he have played for last week?
He's had 10 starts and 8 bench appearances for Saracens so far this season (granted, 5 starts in the PRC) out of 21 matches Sarries have played. Equally Saracens haven't had a match for the last 7 weeks. He's getting that game time, he just needs more (and evidence that he isn't suffering second season syndrome, with this being his breakthrough season).
6N 2025 is the earliest I'd have him in England contention (maybe in camp AI 2024 to learn the gameplan)
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:39 pm
by Captainhaircut
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:54 am
I guess you mean Lawrence at 13 used to defending this system there, as he has played most of his rugby at 13 (81%, and of the 19% at 12, a huge chunk has been in this 6N!). Dingwall regularly performs that kind of distributor role for Saints btw.
Correct. 13 and wing looks absolutely nightmares to defend in this system.
Dingwall could possibly do it but not sure he has the pace to defend the 13 channel in tests? That said, the blitz means the 13’s job doesn’t appear to be to move laterally…
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:16 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:28 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:50 am2- he played for Ampthill last week.....
Who else should he have played for last week?
He's had 10 starts and 8 bench appearances for Saracens so far this season (granted, 5 starts in the PRC) out of 21 matches Sarries have played. Equally Saracens haven't had a match for the last 7 weeks. He's getting that game time, he just needs more (and evidence that he isn't suffering second season syndrome, with this being his breakthrough season).
6N 2025 is the earliest I'd have him in England contention (maybe in camp AI 2024 to learn the gameplan)
I wasn't saying he should have played for anyone else, it just seems quite odd that someone who is talked about readily as an intl 12 is making cameos in a lower level champ side. That gametime isn't developing him, frankly, which is why the season as structured is a joke and highlights the need for proper dev plans for talent.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:19 pm
by Banquo
Captainhaircut wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 12:39 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 10:54 am
I guess you mean Lawrence at 13 used to defending this system there, as he has played most of his rugby at 13 (81%, and of the 19% at 12, a huge chunk has been in this 6N!). Dingwall regularly performs that kind of distributor role for Saints btw.
Correct. 13 and wing looks absolutely nightmares to defend in this system.
Dingwall could possibly do it but not sure he has the pace to defend the 13 channel in tests? That said, the blitz means the 13’s job doesn’t appear to be to move laterally…
He's probably got similar pace to Slade +/- and is a very good defender at 13 for Saints (and well used to the mix and match between 12 and 13, as Hutchinson (say) isn't trusted in defence in some parts of the field).
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:26 pm
by Which Tyler
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:16 pmI wasn't saying he should have played for anyone else, it just seems quite odd that someone who is talked about readily as an intl 12 is making cameos in a lower level champ side. That gametime isn't developing him, frankly, which is why the season as structured is a joke and highlights the need for proper dev plans for talent.
No, but the gametime he's getting for Saracens is. I suspect the gametime for Ampthill was to knock off some rust ahead of the Premiership restarting.
In much the same way that Bath's friendlies against Gloucester and Leinster weren't to develop the players, but a mid-season pre-season after a 5 week break. Even then - which is better for someone's development? playing rugby, or not playing rugby?
I also suggest he needs another 12 months worth of gametime before being considered at all for international camps - but you made it sound like I was plucking him straight from Ampthill and dropping him into the England 23 without anything in between.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:46 pm
by Banquo
Which Tyler wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:26 pm
Banquo wrote: ↑Tue Mar 19, 2024 2:16 pmI wasn't saying he should have played for anyone else, it just seems quite odd that someone who is talked about readily as an intl 12 is making cameos in a lower level champ side. That gametime isn't developing him, frankly, which is why the season as structured is a joke and highlights the need for proper dev plans for talent.
No, but the gametime he's getting for Saracens is. I suspect the gametime for Ampthill was to knock off some rust ahead of the Premiership restarting.
In much the same way that Bath's friendlies against Gloucester and Leinster weren't to develop the players, but a mid-season pre-season after a 5 week break. Even then - which is better for someone's development? playing rugby, or not playing rugby?
I also suggest he needs another 12 months worth of gametime before being considered at all for international camps - but you made it sound like I was plucking him straight from Ampthill and dropping him into the England 23 without anything in between.
...my point being, the season structure is ridiculous, and need better development plans to dovetail.
You read that into what I said. That wasn't the intent, but hey ho-the intent was to contrast between premier starter and breaking through at sarries to then being at Ampthill.....
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:19 pm
by Galfon
Manu's off to pastures nouveau -
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68605277
Will help Scrubbing Brush's thinking about centre partnerships in the near future.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:40 pm
by SixAndAHalf
Timbo wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 11:12 pm
SixAndAHalf wrote: ↑Sat Mar 16, 2024 10:36 pm
Where do we stand after the 6N then?
I see the basis of the team as George, Itoje, Martin, Chessum, CCS, Earl, Mitchell, Ford, Lawrence, IFW and Freeman (Watson also has a central contract).
If we are talking core components of the squad, not necessarily team, over the next period of time I would add Genge, Marcus Smith & Furbank.
Apologies for the slow response and dragging the thread off topic - just to say I agree these names will be in the wider squad however I do see a world where all of them could be outside of the 23 unlike the core players listed.
As noted there wasnt anyone who played that did anything to rule themselves out but i do see challenges for Roots and Steward.
Re: Borthwick’s England 2.0
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2024 9:43 pm
by FKAS
He was only squad cover this 6N anyway. Had IFW not been injured for the France game he wouldn't have featured. As sub options go, being able to wheel out Manu for 20 mins isn't a bad option.