The Fall of France

[rowan]

While all the attention has been focused on the decline of former powerhouses South Africa and Wales, and even Australia (somewhat unjustly), France's astonishing slump since coming within a drop-goal of winning the 2011 World Cup seems to have slipped under the radar. Perhaps because its France, the unpredictable Tricolors who lose to Tonga at the RWC one week and beat England the next. But overall France has been abysmal on the international stage over the past five years. If I'm not mistaken, they've finished in the bottom half of the 6 Nations table every year since 2011, collecting the Wooden Spoon in 2013 and finishing second-to-bottom this year. They hosted an under-strength and much-maligned Wallabies team last weekend and were beaten at home, having already suffered defeats to England, Scotland & Wales this year. They were mauled by NZ at last year's World Cup and beaten by Ireland in group play, having already been beaten by Ireland, Wales and England (twice) that year. In 2014 they were blitzed by the Wallabies 0-3 in a series, and also beaten by Argentina, Wales & Ireland, while in 2013 their 6 Nations losses to Italy, Wales and England were accompanied by a 0-4 record against the All Blacks and a one-off defeat to the Boks. 2012 saw them beaten by Argentina, Wales & England. So why is nobody asking "What's wrong with France?"

Of course, now that I've written this, they'll probably go and beat the All Blacks this weekend...

[tigran]

Whatever, the only reason is the big difference in the preparation time for the players for the different national teams with the french one.

France is the only nation where the priority is the clubs rather than the national team.

Now that an agreement has been reached recently, maybe the french coaches will have some of the time needed to have their selections finding cohesion.

If you had watched the game against Oz you could feel something is going upward, just a start but it's a sign.

[rowan]

True, I didn't see the game with Australia, though I had expected France to win. I'm looking more at the overall picture, too, as you can see. France haven't beaten the All Blacks now for seven or eight years, and they are currently 8th in the rankings which is only one above their all-time low. I think you are right with your observations about the club scene. The French leagues undoubtedly have far more foreign players than any other, which we know from the 'parent code' can seriously undermine national teams.

[Which Tyler]

It's been discussed a few times on these boards; but generally not as much as others, partly because France's decline has been less precipitous; partly because those with the closest knowledge speak French rather than English (as a first language at least), meaning there are fewer posters exchanging knowledge on English-speaking forae; partly because most observers of European rugby already know the reasons well enough to not feel the need to discuss them further; and of course, partly because they're still a bunch of very talented individuals who can bring it together and paper over the cracks on occassion.

Basically, the main problem is that the French clubs are more powerful than the French union; and more belligerently self-interested - at the cost of both player welfare, and the national team. The English threatened to have similar issues; but with a lesser power imbalance; but have managed to hammer out some actual agreements and compromises.

The French union has next-to-no access (being generous) to players away from IRB9, for training, medical assessments, positional requests etc; and wil get told in pretty blunt terms, where to go if they tried. France are pretty severly compromised in the AIs in comparison to all other top tier nations as they can't train together before the first match; which is exaccerbated again for the 6N as everyone else gets 1-2 weeks with the players in advance, and stays together for the fallow weekends; and again in June where the best players are busy playing for the Bouclier de Brennus. After 4 years of that, they're then pretty compromised and often dispirited when the RWC comes around and they actually get some time together as a squad.

IIRC next year is the first that they'll get some (proper) training together as a squad for the 6N. IIRC next year is the first time they're in real danger of not making the top 2 seeding groups for the RWC - which may be enough to get the anglosphere media interested; or give those milidly interested observers a kick up the arse to educate themselves better.
On here Tig.s and Adder are the best placed to comment - I take an interest and am sometimes able to contribute intelligently; but mostly I'm not connected enough to be properly up to date, and my French isn't good enough to read French-language forae or media.

[rowan]

Thanks for the insights. That was an interesting read.

[tigran]

Thanks WT, the fact is they have also been able to gather the players for two weeks before the AIs for the first time, but of course it's too recent to have a real impact during this autumn, although we can see they are able to play a more expansive game. Wich is due to Novès but also to the time added for their preparation.

All in all there's still bound to be a big difference between France and the others but apparently some efforts are being made.

[Which Tyler]

Thanks WT, the fact is they have also been able to gather the players for two weeks before the AIs for the first time, but of course it's too recent to have a real impact during this autumn, although we can see they are able to play a more expansive game. Wich is due to Novès but also to the time added for their preparation.

All in all there's still bound to be a big difference between France and the others but apparently some efforts are being made.

Cheers Tig.s I had a feeling that was a case; but no confidence in that feeling. Am I right in thinking he'll get 1 week before the 6N AND fallow weekends?
I'm going to go ahead and assume he'll still be hamstrung for the June tour though.
I've felt for a while that for June, France would actively benefit the most from playing a minnow en route to NZ/Aus/Arg - play a Fiji/Samoa/USA whilst missing the Brennus challengers; and get them back for 2 tests against the big boys; rather than a morale sapping loss first up and an uphill struggle from there.
Obviously, I'd prefer all top tier teams to do much the same, but for France it would actively benefit you as well.

[tigran]

He'll have the players 15 days before the 6 nations and they will stay together for 8 weeks (enormous) during the two weeks off between two games Novès will decide if the players stay or join their clubs.

Enormous effort there...

I'm not sure about June, I'll have to check but what is sure is that it's gonna be three games in SA

[Which Tyler]

Cheers - it's going to be a huge boost to French rugby IMO; and sounds similar (or even more generous) than what England have managed to negotiate*.
It'll take some time to work itself out int he wash, but I'd expect you to be real threats again by the RWC19; especially if you do get player release for June.

btw; even SA has local minnows you could play - or visits within Europe as options (though that doesn't help reduce travel) - though, as ever, it would mean a reduction in €€€; and mutual back-scratching for €€€


* Englad coaches get 12 days ahead of AI and 6N & 6N fallow weeks. They also get 3(?) mid-week training sessions away from the international windows; and a degree of control over where and when players play.

[rowan]

6 years is also the longest France have gone without a 5/6 Nations title since winning a share of their first in 1954 (jointly with England & Wales). Since then they've never gone more than five years without winning at least a share of the title, and we have to go back to the early 70s just to find the last time they went 4 years without one...

[rowan]

De ja vu!

[SerjeantWildgoose]

Déjà est un mot, pas deux.

[Adder]

Déjà est un mot, pas deux.

Parlez vous francais Serjeantwildgoose? Olala!

[rowan]

It's de ja vu all over again !!

[rowan]

France in the longest 5/6 Nations championship drought since WWII, and just one up on their lowest ranking ever of 9th. This is the lowest they have ever been at this time of the year, having ranked 7th in November the past two years, five the year before that, fourth in 2012 and third after finishing runner-up at the 2011 World Cup.

[rowan]

Japan talking up their chances of an upset tomorrow. Anyone picking it? I'd like to, but I just don't think they have the forward power. France by 20 or so.

[Hollognois]

Japan beating France today wouldn't be an upset to me. Just a kind of a normal result considering what I've seen of France so far.

[cashead]

20-18 at the moment with just over 15 minutes to go, so yeah, Japan could snatch this away.

[morepork]

Japan totally in this.

[rowan]

Marvellous!

[morepork]

Hey hey.

[morepork]

Man, they were so close.

[cashead]

Yeah, they could have taken that. Probably should have gone for a drop goal when the French knocked on around their own 22.

[rowan]

Great result for Japan. Too bad they missed the conversion, but this further enhances their credentials on the world stage. As for France, their downward spiral continues...

[rowan]

French fans booing their own team at the final whistle, apparently.