RugbyRebels

Just reading another thread, and it was mentioned that Sam Davies was maybe playing better than Biggar at the moment.

I don't know about that, but my question is, is it good for the welsh game, club and country, to have players who are good enough to be competing for a Wales spot, playing for the same club?

Come to that, is it good for the player themselves, not to be No 1 choice, and therefore getting limited opportunity to play at the highest available level?

Would Patchell, for instance, be a better player now, and more likely to be in Wales plans, had he played for Newport at 10, week in, week out, instead of being pissed about at Cardiff?

I think it's good for players to be challenged on a weekly basis. Does Sam Davies get more out of training and testing himself against Dan Biggar than he would get playing every game for the Dragons and losing the majority>?

Getting an easy ride by being moved around is not why we dropped down to four entities... The idea was for competition.

Tre wrote:I think it's good for players to be challenged on a weekly basis. Does Sam Davies get more out of training and testing himself against Dan Biggar than he would get playing every game for the Dragons and losing the majority>?

Getting an easy ride by being moved around is not why we dropped down to four entities... The idea was for competition.

Competition is surely fiercer, and more meaningful, when they are facing each other in a local derby or European cup tie?

Mikeyv wrote:

Tre wrote:I think it's good for players to be challenged on a weekly basis. Does Sam Davies get more out of training and testing himself against Dan Biggar than he would get playing every game for the Dragons and losing the majority>?

Getting an easy ride by being moved around is not why we dropped down to four entities... The idea was for competition.

Competition is surely fiercer, and more meaningful, when they are facing each other in a local derby or European cup tie?

Maybe. He'll learn more by being with players like Biggar, AWJ, etc every day/playing in ERC1 rather than at the Dragons playing in the 2nd Euro tier though surely? Gets plenty of opportunity for first team action with the amount of international games.

Tre wrote:

Mikeyv wrote:

Tre wrote:I think it's good for players to be challenged on a weekly basis. Does Sam Davies get more out of training and testing himself against Dan Biggar than he would get playing every game for the Dragons and losing the majority>?

Getting an easy ride by being moved around is not why we dropped down to four entities... The idea was for competition.

Competition is surely fiercer, and more meaningful, when they are facing each other in a local derby or European cup tie?

Maybe. He'll learn more by being with players like Biggar, AWJ, etc every day/playing in ERC1 rather than at the Dragons playing in the 2nd Euro tier though surely? Gets plenty of opportunity for first team action with the amount of international games.

Dragons was an example only, though I think Patchell would almost certainly have been better off there over the last couple of seasons, and let's not forget, they finished above Cardiff last season, even with the chuckle brothers in charge.

Fair point about learning off better players, though his first team games in international windows will be poor quality games, generally speaking.

Mikeyv wrote:

Tre wrote:

Mikeyv wrote:
Competition is surely fiercer, and more meaningful, when they are facing each other in a local derby or European cup tie?

Maybe. He'll learn more by being with players like Biggar, AWJ, etc every day/playing in ERC1 rather than at the Dragons playing in the 2nd Euro tier though surely? Gets plenty of opportunity for first team action with the amount of international games.

Dragons was an example only, though I think Patchell would almost certainly have been better off there over the last couple of seasons, and let's not forget, they finished above Cardiff last season, even with the chuckle brothers in charge.

Fair point about learning off better players, though his first team games in international windows will be poor quality games, generally speaking.

There is probably no definite right or wrong answer to it. I don't think that spreading out the players to four evenly matched Welsh regional squads would be all that useful or a good thing. Competition is good and in the perfect world there are 4 players for every position in Wales each at a different region.

Where do you draw the line? Do you start saying that because Biggar and Davies are the first choice half backs for Wales they should start playing their regional rugby together?

It's a moving target. Up until recently Sam's probably benefitted overall by being Biggar's understudy and being with all those quality players. But going forward, he'd surely be better off in another team where he was no.1.

But which team? Unfortunately (although I can't prove this), I suspect that being in the Dragons makes you slightly invisible to Gatland's radar (eg Tovey), so I think the Scarlets or Blues would be the best places.

Having said all this, if Sam can keep playing this well it's not complete madness to suggest that he might usurp Biggar at the Ospreys, or at least share the 10 shirt.

For Patchell (and indeed anyone) if you're not even being played in the right shirt, then you need to move. But whether that will be of any help in Patchell's case is up to Gatland...... and we already suspect that Gatland hasn't earmarked him for greatness.

I don't expect the four to be identically matched, that's not possible, but I'd prefer a better spread of the Welsh qualified players.

I think it would improve our strength in depth, and, in the long term, be good for the game in Wales, at club and country level.

The point about Gatland ignoring Newport players, if true, should be addressed, not encouraged or pandered to, though Tovey may not be the best example to prove the case.

It is a shame our best out of hand kicking 10 is not in the shake up considering our tactics regarding kicking.

I would have thought Rhodri Williams would be better served than playing 3rd fiddle at the Scarlets, certainly when you consider that the Os have a foreigner as 2nd choice and the Dragons have foreign 1st and 2nd choice 9s playing for them.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
For Patchell (and indeed anyone) if you're not even being played in the right shirt, then you need to move. But whether that will be of any help in Patchell's case is up to Gatland...... and we already suspect that Gatland hasn't earmarked him for greatness.

Patchell should be in the squad ahead of Anscombe, no doubt about it - incredibly frustrating to see a home-grown player messed around to accomodate someone parachuted in, who then doesnt even play in that position when picked (somehow) for Wales

Patchell is a better 10 AND FB than Anscombe - certainly has far more potential

Mikeyv wrote:I don't expect the four to be identically matched, that's not possible, but I'd prefer a better spread of the Welsh qualified players.

I think it would improve our strength in depth, and, in the long term, be good for the game in Wales, at club and country level.

The point about Gatland ignoring Newport players, if true, should be addressed, not encouraged or pandered to, though Tovey may not be the best example to prove the case.

I totally agree. I was looking at it from the point of a single player, right now deciding if a move would be good(so would a move to the Dragons be risky?).

Standing back to take a whole Wales view, then absolutely it's for the best if the good players are spread around fairly evenly. It's clearly not ideal that the Scarlets have so many good Welsh 9s; it would be better if Sam Davies was first choice for his team (any team); the Dragons could do with more of the good players (as they do a lot better with what they have than do the Blues...) etc etc.

For young, developing players it may be best to be an understudy in the best team, but once past this point spread them out.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mikeyv wrote:I don't expect the four to be identically matched, that's not possible, but I'd prefer a better spread of the Welsh qualified players.

I think it would improve our strength in depth, and, in the long term, be good for the game in Wales, at club and country level.

The point about Gatland ignoring Newport players, if true, should be addressed, not encouraged or pandered to, though Tovey may not be the best example to prove the case.

I totally agree. I was looking at it from the point of a single player, right now deciding if a move would be good(so would a move to the Dragons be risky?).

Standing back to take a whole Wales view, then absolutely it's for the best if the good players are spread around fairly evenly. It's clearly not ideal that the Scarlets have so many good Welsh 9s; it would be better if Sam Davies was first choice for his team (any team); the Dragons could do with more of the good players (as they do a lot better with what they have than do the Blues...) etc etc.

For young, developing players it may be best to be an understudy in the best team, but once past this point spread them out.

That's a decision for the players to make.

Tre wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Mikeyv wrote:I don't expect the four to be identically matched, that's not possible, but I'd prefer a better spread of the Welsh qualified players.

I think it would improve our strength in depth, and, in the long term, be good for the game in Wales, at club and country level.

The point about Gatland ignoring Newport players, if true, should be addressed, not encouraged or pandered to, though Tovey may not be the best example to prove the case.

I totally agree. I was looking at it from the point of a single player, right now deciding if a move would be good(so would a move to the Dragons be risky?).

Standing back to take a whole Wales view, then absolutely it's for the best if the good players are spread around fairly evenly. It's clearly not ideal that the Scarlets have so many good Welsh 9s; it would be better if Sam Davies was first choice for his team (any team); the Dragons could do with more of the good players (as they do a lot better with what they have than do the Blues...) etc etc.

For young, developing players it may be best to be an understudy in the best team, but once past this point spread them out.

That's a decision for the players to make.

Do you have a view on whether it's a good thing or not to spread them out. In an ideal world?

As for whose decision it is - it's for the clubs and players (and WRU if the player is joint-contracted) to make.

The current system of contracts is ridiculous.

Basically the Ospreys are being subsidised, to the obvious detriment of the others.

Mikeyv wrote:Just reading another thread, and it was mentioned that Sam Davies was maybe playing better than Biggar at the moment.

I don't know about that, but my question is, is it good for the welsh game, club and country, to have players who are good enough to be competing for a Wales spot, playing for the same club?

Come to that, is it good for the player themselves, not to be No 1 choice, and therefore getting limited opportunity to play at the highest available level?

Would Patchell, for instance, be a better player now, and more likely to be in Wales plans, had he played for Newport at 10, week in, week out, instead of being pissed about at Cardiff?

Sam is a great talent and has a lot of good moments for the Ospreys, but for me he's too inconsistent. There are still too many errors to his game to be challenging Priestland as Biggar's back up. In a year or so I expect to see them ironed out and hopefully he will have bulked up a little to cope better with the rigours of international rugby.

Numbers wrote:It is a shame our best out of hand kicking 10 is not in the shake up considering our tactics regarding kicking.

I would have thought Rhodri Williams would be better served than playing 3rd fiddle at the Scarlets, certainly when you consider that the Os have a foreigner as 2nd choice and the Dragons have foreign 1st and 2nd choice 9s playing for them.

It's infuriating that the other regions have let Rhodri move outside of Wales next season.

Mikeyv wrote:The current system of contracts is ridiculous.

Basically the Ospreys are being subsidised, to the obvious detriment of the others.

It is bonkers, but no worse than the previous system where the O's got the same money as the Dragons yet provide Team Wales with loads more players.

Some of the the O's players on duel contracts are a bit of a mystery. Which makes me wonder if it's an attempt to make up for the previous disparity, and it will even itself out in time.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:It's a moving target. Up until recently Sam's probably benefitted overall by being Biggar's understudy and being with all those quality players. But going forward, he'd surely be better off in another team where he was no.1.

But which team? Unfortunately (although I can't prove this), I suspect that being in the Dragons makes you slightly invisible to Gatland's radar (eg Tovey), so I think the Scarlets or Blues would be the best places.

Having said all this, if Sam can keep playing this well it's not complete madness to suggest that he might usurp Biggar at the Ospreys, or at least share the 10 shirt.

For Patchell (and indeed anyone) if you're not even being played in the right shirt, then you need to move. But whether that will be of any help in Patchell's case is up to Gatland...... and we already suspect that Gatland hasn't earmarked him for greatness.

Agreed. I think the issue becomes more pronounced when you have 2 players of equal ability in the same position, rather than a recognised understudy. That's when you get the Patchell situation of moving around.

Son of Mathonwy wrote:

Tre wrote:

Son of Mathonwy wrote:
I totally agree. I was looking at it from the point of a single player, right now deciding if a move would be good(so would a move to the Dragons be risky?).

Standing back to take a whole Wales view, then absolutely it's for the best if the good players are spread around fairly evenly. It's clearly not ideal that the Scarlets have so many good Welsh 9s; it would be better if Sam Davies was first choice for his team (any team); the Dragons could do with more of the good players (as they do a lot better with what they have than do the Blues...) etc etc.

For young, developing players it may be best to be an understudy in the best team, but once past this point spread them out.

That's a decision for the players to make.

Do you have a view on whether it's a good thing or not to spread them out. In an ideal world?

As for whose decision it is - it's for the clubs and players (and WRU if the player is joint-contracted) to make.

In an idea world all four have world class players starting in each position with an 'apprentice' covering them. Unlikely!

Another thing struck me.

Is having the lions share of welsh players even good for the club that has them?

Ospreys are obviously that club currently, and their pro12 season was almost over before it began, thanks, in part, to having so many WC players, and their season will continue to be affected in international windows, especially with the ridiculous structure of our season, as it stands.

Mikeyv wrote:Another thing struck me.

Is having the lions share of welsh players even good for the club that has them?

Ospreys are obviously that club currently, and their pro12 season was almost over before it began, thanks, in part, to having so many WC players, and their season will continue to be affected in international windows, especially with the ridiculous structure of our season, as it stands.

With competitive games over the international windows, no its not a huge advantage. Our reason needs an urgent restructure, we should be able to avoid competitive club matches during international windows

Sandydragon wrote:

Mikeyv wrote:Another thing struck me.

Is having the lions share of welsh players even good for the club that has them?

Ospreys are obviously that club currently, and their pro12 season was almost over before it began, thanks, in part, to having so many WC players, and their season will continue to be affected in international windows, especially with the ridiculous structure of our season, as it stands.

With competitive games over the international windows, no its not a huge advantage. Our reason needs an urgent restructure, we should be able to avoid competitive club matches during international windows

That can only be done with less rugby.

Removing competitive games in the international window would disrupt cashflow.

It would impact turnstile revenue, unless there was something to replace it which was less essential to club success. Sub strength teams don't pull in huge crowds either.

Mikeyv wrote:Another thing struck me.

Is having the lions share of welsh players even good for the club that has them?

Ospreys are obviously that club currently, and their pro12 season was almost over before it began, thanks, in part, to having so many WC players, and their season will continue to be affected in international windows, especially with the ridiculous structure of our season, as it stands.

I'm not sure why it's different this season, but the Ospreys have managed to cope with the issue previously. They've lost just as many players if not more previously, when you consider how many of the backs are lost during the internationals now. They key is finding the right blend of quality players that aren't going to be lost in the international window, that haven't gone to the more financially lucrative AP or Top14