England's back row future (plus opensides!)

[Scrumhead]

Who knows what will happen between now and the World Cup, but after Tom Curry and Underhill's performances in Argentina and Mercer, Earl and Bayliss impressing with the U20s in Georgia, the future of back row looks very interesting indeed.

Even if Eddie perseveres with Robshaw, Haskell and Wood through to the World Cup (which is unlikely IMO), it's pretty much certain that none of the three will survive beyond that. Billy might head off to the NFL too.

The long-term options as I see it are ...

Blindside:

James Chisholm - had a very good season for Quins and is a big, aggressive 6. I'd question whether he's mobile enough for test rugby, but worth keeping an eye on.

Tom Eills - out with a long term injury, but on the evidence of last season, he looks as though he could become a rangy, athletic 6 in the mould of Croft or a young Wood.

Josh Bayliss - looked very good at U20 level and is highly rated at Bath.

Openside:

Will Evans - almost forgotten since the Currys came on to the scene but if Evans can get back to fitness and form, he could well get back on the radar. Looked very good at the breakdown and more of an attacking, linking 7 than the Currys or Underhill IMO.

Ben Earl - had a great U20 World Cup. Very mobile and athletic and combines toughness in defence and at the breakdown with the ability to pick excellent lines in attack not unlike Michael Hooper. Definitely one to watch.

Number 8:

Zach Mercer - made a big impression at Bath and a huge impression on the U20s. Probably needs to bulk up but looks like a very intelligent, natural rugby player as well as a leader.

Sam Simmonds - I love watching this guy play. Not a big, bludgeoning 8, but athletic with loads of talent ball-in-hand. Should see a lot more game time with Chiefs this season.

Others:

Lewis Ludlam - almost disappeared without a trace at Saints. Hopefully Clark leaving is the catalyst for him getting more game time. If not, he needs a move.

Matt Kvesic - it's easy to forget he's only 25. I remain hopeful that Baxter is going to reignite his career to put him in contention in the fairly immediate term, but if not, Eddie's successor may feel differently post 2019.

What I like about a lot of these guys is the pace and skill level they seem to have relative to our back row options over the past few years. If they continue developing as they have so far, the makeup of our back row could be very different in years to come.

[Mellsblue]

I'd add in Joel Conlon and then leave it to jngf.

[Scrumhead]

Conlon was good last season, but his game time is likely to be limited with Clark joining Sarries. Earl looks a better prospect IMO.

Another one I've heard hyped-up is Jake Polledri who signed for Gloucester from Hartpury. I've not seen the guy play, but apparently he is one to watch and is already on Conor O'Shea's radar for Italy. Scored a hatful of tries for Hartpury, but I'm not sure about the rest of his game?

[Mellsblue]

Isn't Conlon primarily an 8?

[Mikey Brown]

Wow. I thought Kvesic must be pushing 30. I feel like I've been hearing a lot and not seeing a lot for a very long time.

I worry whenever there's a young number 8 that just needs to put on a little timber after Gray/Ellis and I'm worried I may be saying Clifford too. Chisholm I see as more of an 8 to be honest but agree with the assessment. Is Simmonds considered an 8?

[Puja]

Isn't Conlon primarily an 8?

Played 7 at age group, IIRC, and Sarries have certainly played him on the flank when he's had opportunities.

Puja

[twitchy]

Remember when jack clifford was seen as the future?

[Scrumhead]

Remember when jack clifford was seen as the future?

Clifford still has bags of talent. He's been unlucky with injuries (including some serious ones) since he captained the U20s and from an England point of view, he's not really been used in the right way IMO.

In our efforts to find a 7, we've trialled Clifford in that role and asked him to play a certain way that doesn't suit his style when all of his best rugby has been played at 8. He's just not the type of 8 England play with at the moment. We want our 8 to emulate Billy and run through brick walls. Clifford isn't that guy - he's more of Faletau type.

Unless we want to change the way our 8 is used, then it may be tough for Clifford and Beaumont to be considered as serious contenders.

That said, with the new options pressing a better claim at 7, I think the only way he could get back in to the mix is at 8. I hope he has a good season and reminds everyone how good he is, but right now, he is one who is in danger of slipping out of the reckoning.

[Scrumhead]

Wow. I thought Kvesic must be pushing 30. I feel like I've been hearing a lot and not seeing a lot for a very long time.

I worry whenever there's a young number 8 that just needs to put on a little timber after Gray/Ellis and I'm worried I may be saying Clifford too. Chisholm I see as more of an 8 to be honest but agree with the assessment. Is Simmonds considered an 8?

Simmonds is seen as an 8.

Baxter knows his onions when it comes to forwards, so I'll cede to his better judgement, but outside of the scrum, Simmonds looks more like a 7 to me.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

There's a lad White at Chiefs that Richard Hill(Holy Trinity one not the ex9) rates the best of the lot including the Currys, he's had some injuries of late.

[Mikey Brown]

Thomas Waldrom?

[Mellsblue]

Isn't Conlon primarily an 8?

Played 7 at age group, IIRC, and Sarries have certainly played him on the flank when he's had opportunities.

Puja

Ah, ok. Played solely at 8 for Bedford.

[fivepointer]

We've got some cracking young talent coming through.

I'm a Simmonds fan too. Very good over the ball, but carries effectively. He should get more game time next season which should speed along his development. I thought he might get called up for the England tour.

Earl has been excellent for the U20's. He's still has a year to go with them, so we may not see him play much for Saracens beyond AWC and A league duties.

Ludlam is an odd one. He was quite outstanding fort the u20's and looked premiership ready but has hardly had a game for Saints. Was his JWC form a blip, or are Saints not giving him an opportunity?

[Tigersman]

Some ones who I think haven't been mentioned yet.
6
Ludlow - Looks the real deal when he has played with Glous can see himself ting more game time next season as things stand.
Nott - Diamonds NEEDS to play him at 6 he isn't big enough to become a top lock, he has a perfect balance of Physicality and mobility, biggest concern is the fact Sale have signed Ross and Strauss to go with the 2 curries. Really wish they had signed a big name lock instead of either Struass or Ross.

6/8
Chick - Gradually introduced by Falcons last season think he will have a breakthrough season next year.

[TheNomad]

All the main names are up there I think. One of the main debates will be where some of these players focus:

Chisholm - I see him as a 6, but could be an 8, and obviously has a handy 6 in front of him at Quins
Simmonds - I doubt will be considered big enough to be an 8 at international level, so may want to focus elsewhere, though as has been said, Baxter seems to play him as an 8
Clifford - could play any of the three IMO
Underhill - looks a 6.5 to me

There are some difficult calls in there given we have two absolute monsters at 8 at the moment (who are both still fairly young) that I think Eddie likes, so some of those guys might fancy their chances more on the flank.

Either way, both 6 and 7 (one clearly more than other) are positions where it's been felt for a while that we could improve - notable that it's the only position where none of the England squad are (in practise) anywhere near the Lions team - and it's nice to see a really good group coming through.

[Digby]

Needs more jngf

[Puja]

Needs more jngf

Where is he?! A busy back row thread with lots of posts, but none from him. It's like the Batsignal went up and everyone but Batman showed up.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Some ones who I think haven't been mentioned yet.
6
Ludlow - Looks the real deal when he has played with Glous can see himself ting more game time next season as things stand.
Nott - Diamonds NEEDS to play him at 6 he isn't big enough to become a top lock, he has a perfect balance of Physicality and mobility, biggest concern is the fact Sale have signed Ross and Strauss to go with the 2 curries. Really wish they had signed a big name lock instead of either Struass or Ross.

6/8
Chick - Gradually introduced by Falcons last season think he will have a breakthrough season next year.

Yeah - Nott is an obvious one I forgot but I share your concerns re. his likely game time.

Ludlow is a good shout. He looked decent for Gloucester towards the end of last season.

[Bloggs]

Needs more jngf

Where is he?! A busy back row thread with lots of posts, but none from him. It's like the Batsignal went up and everyone but Batman showed up.

Puja

I just assumed it was him who started this thread

[Peat]

Needs more jngf

Where is he?! A busy back row thread with lots of posts, but none from him. It's like the Batsignal went up and everyone but Batman showed up.

Puja

It doesn't have openside in the title.

[Scrumhead]

I realised I left out Sam Jones.

I'd definitely regard him as more of a 6 than a 7 but we know Eddie was keen to try him out.

I think he has an outside chance of making the squad if he can find fitness and form but he's not 26 until December so he's still in the group that could come to the fore post 2019.

[Puja]

Needs more jngf

Where is he?! A busy back row thread with lots of posts, but none from him. It's like the Batsignal went up and everyone but Batman showed up.

Puja

It doesn't have openside in the title.

FTFY.

Puja

[Banquo]

Where is he?! A busy back row thread with lots of posts, but none from him. It's like the Batsignal went up and everyone but Batman showed up.

Puja

It doesn't have openside in the title.

FTFY.

Puja

ha!

[jngf]

This is truly a thread after my own heart!

On the openside front I would like to see what Ben Evans and Sam Simmonds could bring to the party - i.e. I'm hoping these have the ability to act as true linkmean with the pace and footballing skills of an extra three quarter.

Underhill and T.Curry are both a step forward from Haskell but I'd class both as more defensively focussed from what I've seen of them at test level.

B.Curry has yet to play for England but my assumption based on what I've heard is he might be slightly more of a specialist 7 than his brother- is this a fair comment?

T.Curry, L.Ludlum and Underhill all look like 6.5s

One could say the same for Wood, Harrison and Croft any of whom I'd have ahead of Haskell or Robshaw at 7 but the converse would apply if discussing 6.

Finally Thacker has been mentioned as a sort of Moody 2.0 ( - or another 6.5 in the 'mad dog' mode)

[Puja]

And he appears!

TCurry is very definitely not a 6.5 - he's a pure 7 through and through. His games vs the Barbarians and Argentina showed that to me - he was constantly sniffing around the breakdown and going for turnovers. BCurry is slightly better at the breakdown from watching him for Sale, but the differences are very slight indeed.

I would agree with you that Underhill looks like the natural Robshaw successor though. I'm sure we could use him at 7, but I think he'll be best as a 6 long-term.

Puja