Lions' future secured?

Lizard · Post by **Lizard** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:01 pm

With the SANZAR/Lions contract up for renewal after this tour, you would have to say that the Lions win will go a long way to negating the naysayers who claimed Lions tours were now too tough and that the concept should be binned or seriously reduced in scope.

Ironically, it's possibly the NZRU who may benefit the most given the financial return a Lions tour generates.

Digby · Post by **Digby** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 12:29 pm

They raise so much money it's hard to see them not carrying on. But we will have the interesting spectacle of the NH clubs saying they should share the proceeds on a much more equal basis with the host nation, whilst the NH unions all continue to ignore that as a model for test rugby outside Lions tours. Also probably need to include the Argies in future Lions tours.

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:05 pm

Digby wrote: Also probably need to include the Argies in future Lions tours.

I think this is where the negotiation will be interesting. Why are Argentina more deserving than France? Why aren't Japan and the PIs considered for games?

Looking ahead assuming the S.A. tour goes ahead. I'd like to see Namibia get a midweek game early in the tour.

Digby · Post by **Digby** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:10 pm

Big D wrote:
Digby wrote: Also probably need to include the Argies in future Lions tours.
I think this is where the negotiation will be interesting. Why are Argentina more deserving than France? Why aren't Japan and the PIs considered for games?

Looking ahead assuming the S.A. tour goes ahead. I'd like to see Namibia get a midweek game early in the tour.

Would you consider Japan and PI for full tours or just warmup games?

And touring France is maybe interesting, but it is rather on the doorstep and that does feel a little different.

Big D · Post by **Big D** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:13 pm

Digby wrote:
Big D wrote:
Digby wrote: Also probably need to include the Argies in future Lions tours.
I think this is where the negotiation will be interesting. Why are Argentina more deserving than France? Why aren't Japan and the PIs considered for games?

Looking ahead assuming the S.A. tour goes ahead. I'd like to see Namibia get a midweek game early in the tour.
Would you consider Japan and PI for full tours or just warmup games?

And touring France is maybe interesting, but it is rather on the doorstep and that does feel a little different.

For example, I'd be looking for say the Asian champs to get a game on the Aussie tour and the Pacific Champs to get a game on the NZ tour. I think it would do those nations a bit of good.

I agree France would feel different but don't see why see should forget Europe if they are considering taking the Lions to the Americas.

My preference is to leave it how it is but add game v other nations like the above suggestion.

skidger · Post by **skidger** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 1:39 pm

Big D wrote:
Digby wrote:
Big D wrote:
I think this is where the negotiation will be interesting. Why are Argentina more deserving than France? Why aren't Japan and the PIs considered for games?

Looking ahead assuming the S.A. tour goes ahead. I'd like to see Namibia get a midweek game early in the tour.
Would you consider Japan and PI for full tours or just warmup games?

And touring France is maybe interesting, but it is rather on the doorstep and that does feel a little different.
For example, I'd be looking for say the Asian champs to get a game on the Aussie tour and the Pacific Champs to get a game on the NZ tour. I think it would do those nations a bit of good.

I agree France would feel different but don't see why see should forget Europe if they are considering taking the Lions to the Americas.

My preference is to leave it how it is but add game v other nations like the above suggestion.

There was an article a few backs saying the way rugby is heading in Australia they would struggle to host a Lions tour. Well one as large as this one due to lack of opposition.

Post by **Sandydragon** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:10 pm

This tour has been full of tough games, but that's not always the case, particularly in Oz. I'd rather the lions played one of the PU teams, or Japan, as part of the tour than participate in a one way try fest.

However, something needs to happen about the scheduling. The prep time for this tour was frigging crazy.

Post by **morepork** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:25 pm

PU? Pacific Underworld?

Post by **Puja** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:32 pm

morepork wrote:PU? Pacific Underworld?

Give climate change another few years...

Puja

Post by **morepork** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:38 pm

The most PC come back EVA.

Digby · Post by **Digby** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:18 pm

Puja wrote:
morepork wrote:PU? Pacific Underworld?
Give climate change another few years...

Puja

It can't be worse than the Kate Beckinsale films, though the films did have Kate Beckinsale so weren't all bad.

kk67 · Post by **kk67** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:18 pm

It raises a lot of money because the fans and the players adore it. Everyone else can fuck off.

Post by **Puja** » Sun Jul 02, 2017 11:29 pm

kk67 wrote:It raises a lot of money because the fans and the players adore it. Everyone else can fuck off.

Well said.

Puja

Digby · Post by **Digby** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 8:27 am

kk67 wrote:It raises a lot of money because the fans and the players adore it. Everyone else can fuck off.

Very nearly one of those rare instances of you not assuming the moral high ground.

I'd rather it went in its entirety, but actually if the NH does take a much bigger payment from the host nation it would ameliorate my concerns that not only does it disrupt and even worsen the progress of the England team but it does so in a fashion that raises a big cash windfall for some of our principal rivals.

WaspInWales · Post by **WaspInWales** » Mon Jul 03, 2017 11:39 pm

I don't think the Lions should expand where they tour, but why not have the opposition expand for a one-off match every 4 years?

'The B&I Lions Vs The Sanzar minus Argentina Lions'. It's a working title, I'm sure the marketing bods could think of something a little more catchy.

I know the schedule has raised a few eyebrows for this tour, but another midweek match would've been nice for the morning.

Lizard · Post by **Lizard** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:36 am

The Lions did tack on a match (uncapped) against an ANZAC XV to the end of their 1989 tour of Australia (I actually had the ANZAC jumper as a nipper). The idea was not well received in NZ, only 3 players bothering to accept the invitation (McDowell, Botica and Crowley). After this tour a Lions team (not quite the same as the touring side) also played France in Paris for the Bicentennial of the Revolution.

This all followed a Lions v The Rest match as part of the IRFB centenary celebrations in 1986. The IRFB only had 8 members at the time so "The Rest" meant NZ (5 players), Aus (7 players including 1 Argentinian), SA (1) and France (2).

Since then there have been warm-ups v Argentina (2005) and Baabaas (2013).

Lizard · Post by **Lizard** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:45 am

I forget the slightly weird "Home Unions XV" v Rest of Europe match in 1990 played at Twickenham to raise money for Romanian rugby after the revolution there.

The Home Nations team wore the Lions logo, featured mostly past or future Lions players and was coached by Lions coaching team Geech and Uttley.

The Rest of Europe side featured 12 Frenchmen (4 uncapped), 4 Romanians, 2 Italians, 2 Soviets, 1 Spaniard and, bizarrely, a Swede.

(This was clearly played under festival conditions as both sides used multiple subs despite that not being permitted at the time)

kk67 · Post by **kk67** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 6:59 pm

Digby wrote:
kk67 wrote:It raises a lot of money because the fans and the players adore it. Everyone else can fuck off.
Very nearly one of those rare instances of you not assuming the moral high ground.

Ouch. Very good.

Lizard · Post by **Lizard** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 1:08 am

WaspInWales wrote:I don't think the Lions should expand where they tour, but why not have the opposition expand for a one-off match every 4 years?

'The B&I Lions Vs The Sanzar minus Argentina Lions'. It's a working title, I'm sure the marketing bods could think of something a little more catchy.

I know the schedule has raised a few eyebrows for this tour, but another midweek match would've been nice for the morning.

To be fair, the British & Irish Lions do retrospectively recognise three tours to Argentina as official Lions tours, so it wouldn't technically be an expansion to resume going there. In reality though it would, and I expect the results would be a bit different.

1910: an unoffical Anglo/Scots team toured Argentina (including 1 "test"*) at about the same time as the first offical, Home Unions sanctioned British Isles tour was in South Africa
1927: another unoffical Anglo/Scots combination toured, playing 4 "tests"*
1936: an IRFB sanctioned "Great Britain XV" toured, using mostly English players with some Scots and Irish, playing 1 "test."

The 1910 Argentina side had very few non-English looking names, and includes the magnificently monikered IRB Hall of Famer "Fairy Heatlie" who has the unique distinction of being capped by two different countries agaisnt the Lions, having played 6 tests for the nation of his birth against the British tourists to South Africa in 1891, 1896 and 1903.**

The aggregate score across the 6 "tests"* was 211 - 6, the Lions scoring 23-46 points and the Pumas 0-3 points in each match.

*All the matches against the Argentine national side were uncapped by the "Lions" but have been recognised by the UAR as test matches.

**Heatlie is also credited with introducing the green Springbok jumper in 1903.

Post by **Sandydragon** » Wed Jul 05, 2017 6:42 am

The issues for these tours is time and travel. The NZ tour is probably competitive enough, the only element to think of is perhaps another week, or may be pre tour.

SA tours have been pretty good in the past, a good mix of easier and hard club games prior to the tests. Could the lions play Namibia mid week rather than a club side, why not?

The Aussie tour is probably the weakest and there would be an argument for dropping a franchise and looking at a PI team. probably the best tour to manage that travel wise.

None of the current tours would really lend themselves to a game in Argentina. The travel requirements on a team already jet lagged from the initial travel would b significant. Equally a tour to Argentina would not be a huge event, I just don't see the club infrastructure there to give the quality of tour required. I suspect the Argentinians only games would be pre tour ones as per 2005.

Mellsblue · Post by **Mellsblue** » Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:34 am

You'd have to say so after that.

Post by **morepork** » Sun Jul 09, 2017 9:31 pm

People demanding respeck for David Bren....I mean Warren Gatland.

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/sport/334 ... lack-coach

Lions tour manager John Spencer says New Zealanders need to respect Gatland's achievement in building a Lions team capable of standing up to the World Champions in their own back yard.

"I think his achievements on this tour have opened up the future for him.

I think he is the best coach in the world and I think he has proved that with our guys."

I'm putting it down to the players at least as much as Gatland.

J Dory · Post by **J Dory** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:29 pm

Was starting to think this tour would be a non-event...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11888848

That's more like it.

zer0 · Post by **zer0** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:34 pm

J Dory wrote:Was starting to think this tour would be a non-event...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11888848

That's more like it.

Looks like I've been given the business by a fish.

Post by **Puja** » Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:51 pm

J Dory wrote:Was starting to think this tour would be a non-event...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/ar ... d=11888848

That's more like it.

Christ alight. What a prat. And yet, totally predictable - if you were to tell me that a Lions player was arrested for disorderly behaviour on a night out and gave me three guesses as to who, all three guesses would be Sinckler.

Needs to sort himself out, pronto.

Puja

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