RugbyRebels

Had to come . . . but this time from within New Zealand:

New Zealand Herald rugby writer Chris Rattue says Vaea Fifita's selection proves the All Blacks do raid the Pacific Islands for players.

The 25-year-old flank produced an outstanding performance for the All Blacks against Argentina last Saturday in his first Test start.

WATCH: Fifita stars for All Blacks

Fifita was born and raised in Tonga. He attended Tonga College and toured New Zealand with Tonga Schools, which is when he was spotted by Tamaki College, who offered him a rugby scholarship.

He attended Murray Mexted's academy in New Zealand and went on to play for Wellington and the Hurricanes, before making his All Blacks debut off the bench against Samoa in June.

However, there are many who believe Fifita should be playing for Tonga and not New Zealand.

'Should he really be playing for the All Blacks at all?' asked Rattue in a column for the New Zealand Herald. 'Or is New Zealand rugby using its money and power to unfairly raid small neighbours?

'Look, I'm glad – make that very excited – that Fifita is in the All Blacks, from a parochial point of view, and no doubt he is as well. We are going to see something very special.

'But I'm also torn, uneasy. Fifita is a Tongan who came to this country, at an advanced age, for no other reason than rugby. If World Rugby was serious about real world rugby Fifita would be playing for Tonga.'

http://www.sarugbymag.co.za/blog/detail ... ic-islands

Meanwhile, Israel Folau also featuring prominently in today's rugby headlings for tweeting his opposition to gay marriage. http://www.nzherald.co.nz/index.cfm?obj ... ef=twitter

Probably more accurate to say that NZ high schools raid the Pacific Islands.

Yes, I think that's always been the case. There's no doubt players like Fifita are the exception rather than rule, however. The majority of Pacific Islanders in the All Blacks have always been NZ born or at least raised in the country. What foreigners may not realize is that the government opened up immigration from the islands about half a century ago, and that the major transformation the All Blacks under went in the late 1980s and early 1990s was the end result, as the first generation of Pacific Island New Zealanders reached adulthood. This was quickly followed by the transition to professionalism, which brought a lot of Polynesians over from league, both Pacific Islanders and Maori, particularly in the Auckland region. In fact, it is far more likely to find a Samoan or Tongan test player who was born and/or raised in NZ these days than vice versa. But there is no doubt that the poaching does go on, and particularly at high school level, as you say.

Chris Rattue, has there ever been a rugby writer more desperate for attention?

Wasn't he one of the major cheerleaders for an All Blacks test in Samoa? It's after my time and I'm not too familiar with the guy, but I have to say I like where he's coming from. If he's a bit harsh on the Kiwis, so be it. They'll survive. But as long as he's keeping the plight of the Islands to the forefront, I say all power to him.

What I don't like to see, personally, are Fijians in the NZ 7s team. That really sucks, because there is not a particularly large diaspora in NZ. In fact, a quick google search tells me they represent just 3% of NZ's Pacific Island population, compared to Samoans, 50%, Cook Islanders 23% and Tongans 18%. So if you see a Fijian running around in the NZ 7s team, as you often do, then chances are fairly good he's been poached outright.

J Dory wrote:Chris Rattue, has there ever been a rugby writer more desperate for attention?

Mark Reason?

Or maybe these brown boys and girl can play for whomever they fucking well are eligible for, and not have a bunch of white motherfuckers running around handwringing about it, like they've been stripped of their agency and shanghai'd into a black jersey. Rattue can fuck off the nearest cliff.

cashead wrote:

J Dory wrote:Chris Rattue, has there ever been a rugby writer more desperate for attention?

Mark Reason?

Possibly, there is someone else that comes to mind.

Ahahahahaha

BOOM!BOOM!

Dory you beatch.

J Dory wrote:

cashead wrote:

J Dory wrote:Chris Rattue, has there ever been a rugby writer more desperate for attention?

Mark Reason?

Possibly, there is someone else that comes to mind.

Stephen Jones.

Yep. :|

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Yep.

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

cashead wrote:Or maybe these brown boys and girl can play for whomever they fucking well are eligible for, and not have a bunch of white motherfuckers running around handwringing about it, like they've been stripped of their agency and shanghai'd into a black jersey. Rattue can fuck off the nearest cliff.

Right, so then we're back to an All Blacks first, Island team if you don't quite make it scenario. It's not the player who is being painted as the victim here, but the tiny island nation which produced him.

rowan wrote:Right, so then we're back to an All Blacks first, Island team if you don't quite make it scenario. It's not the player who is being painted as the victim here, but the tiny island nation which produced him.

They get far more from NZ than they give. Are half, or more, of the Saoman and Tongan squads still NZers?

There's no doubt that the likes of Fifita have the absolute right to make themselves available for any test side they are qualified to represent. I also have no doubt that individuals can consider themselves both New Zealanders and Tongan (or Samoan or Estonian or whatever). There is no doubt that a player of Fifita's ability would add more to the Tongan team than to the All Blacks.

The real problem here, to my mind, is when players would privately prefer to represent one nation but for financial/family/career reasons it is better for them to represent another. That must be a hard choice to make. The best answer would be to have a system that would take those issues out of the equation by ensuring that players get the same (or at least comparable) benefits playing for, say, Tonga as they would for NZ. That's probably pie in the sky as things stand, sadly.

morepork wrote:Ahahahahaha

BOOM!BOOM!

Dory you beatch.

zer0 wrote:

rowan wrote:Right, so then we're back to an All Blacks first, Island team if you don't quite make it scenario. It's not the player who is being painted as the victim here, but the tiny island nation which produced him.

They get far more from NZ than they give. Are half, or more, of the Saoman and Tongan squads still NZers?

Pretty much.

In four tests this year, Samoa used 36 players. As best I can tell, at least 17 were NZ-born and at least 14 Samoan-born. I couldn't find info on 5 of them, which is more likely for Samoan-born players but one of them might be from Australia.

Tonga has capped 28 players in 2017. 13 born in NZ, 11 born in Tonga, 2 born in Oz and 2 unknown.

I don't know how many European-based players were unavailable for the mid-year tests (for "family reasons" of course) but that might skew things a bit towards more home-grown players.

rowan wrote:

cashead wrote:Or maybe these brown boys and girl can play for whomever they fucking well are eligible for, and not have a bunch of white motherfuckers running around handwringing about it, like they've been stripped of their agency and shanghai'd into a black jersey. Rattue can fuck off the nearest cliff.

Right, so then we're back to an All Blacks first, Island team if you don't quite make it scenario. It's not the player who is being painted as the victim here, but the tiny island nation which produced him.

So what, are you suggesting that anyone that's a Pacific Islander can't be a Kiwi, regardless of whether or not they were born in New Zealand?

I was born overseas, so do you want to explain my cultural perspectives to me as well, bro?

Probably the best answer to the last few comments/questions raised is to draw your attention to my earlier post, which clarifies my position - one that appears to be similar to that of Chris Rattue himself.

Main points:

The vast majority of the Pacific Islanders who have played for the All Blacks were New Zealanders.

There are some exceptions, mostly due to undeniable poaching at high schools level. Fifita appears to be one.

Far more New Zealand Pacific Islanders play for their ancestral islands, though invariably as a 2nd choice.

Nationality is a question of birth and/or upbringing; not a career choice. Like a native language, it's ingrained by the end of adolescence. Fifita's connection to New Zealand appears to be solely through his rugby training.

rowan wrote:Yes, I think that's always been the case. There's no doubt players like Fifita are the exception rather than rule, however. The majority of Pacific Islanders in the All Blacks have always been NZ born or at least raised in the country. What foreigners may not realize is that the government opened up immigration from the islands about half a century ago, and that the major transformation the All Blacks under went in the late 1980s and early 1990s was the end result, as the first generation of Pacific Island New Zealanders reached adulthood. This was quickly followed by the transition to professionalism, which brought a lot of Polynesians over from league, both Pacific Islanders and Maori, particularly in the Auckland region. In fact, it is far more likely to find a Samoan or Tongan test player who was born and/or raised in NZ these days than vice versa. But there is no doubt that the poaching does go on, and particularly at high school level, as you say.

So please spare me the inane So you're saying Pacific Islanders can't be New Zealanders? nonsense. I happen to have Pacific Island whanau.

"Fifita's connection to New Zealand appears to be solely through his rugby training."

Because this doesn't reek of presumptive bullshit at all.

I moved to New Zealand at secondary school age. Tell me whether or not I'm a Kiwi.

cashead wrote:"Fifita's connection to New Zealand appears to be solely through his rugby training."

Because this doesn't reek of presumptive bullshit at all.

I moved to New Zealand at secondary school age. Tell me whether or not I'm a Kiwi.

It's not presumptive at all, firstly because the verb "appears" has been applied, which means the comment is based on non-conclusive evidence, and that evidence was obviously the article being discussed here.

"Fifita was born and raised in Tonga. He attended Tonga College and toured New Zealand with Tonga Schools, which is when he was spotted by Tamaki College, who offered him a rugby scholarship.

He attended Murray Mexted's academy in New Zealand and went on to play for Wellington and the Hurricanes, before making his All Blacks debut off the bench against Samoa in June."

So you've made another really stupid comment there, Cashead, and you're not going to prove anything by holing up in your bunker and firing angry pot-shots at anyone who dares disagree with your defence of a fairly blatant example of poaching. It is, however, the exception rather than the rule, which I've been at pains to point out.

And you continue to spectacularly miss the points being made.

zer0 wrote:

rowan wrote:Right, so then we're back to an All Blacks first, Island team if you don't quite make it scenario. It's not the player who is being painted as the victim here, but the tiny island nation which produced him.

They get far more from NZ than they give. Are half, or more, of the Saoman and Tongan squads still NZers?

I'm not sure of the exact percentage but last time I looked, yes, many were. There's nothing wrong with opting to play for one's ancestral homeland, provided it's not simply treated as a back-up plan to playing for New Zealand, and the only way to ensure this is by including age-grade representation in the eligibility criteria. But opting to play for the ancestral homeland is without doubt a prerogative which should apply due to cultural issues and so on. That's quite different from going from a small island nation to a larger nation to further your rugby career, then deciding you'd rather play for the larger nation instead - which is about as clear a definition of being poached as you can get.

rowan wrote:... which clarifies my position - one that appears to be similar to that of Chris Rattue himself.

Whereas your view of this is evidently that there is never anything wrong with New Zealand poaching Pacific Island rugby talent, regardless how blatant the case may be, because the Pacific Islands are apparently indebted to New Zealand and should be grovelling at their knees with obeisance and gratitude.

Let's just say, I have a lot more respect for Rattue's perspective . . .