RugbyRebels

Thinking about AIs are we going to see a pack which starts with a grating, attritional, scrum focussed tight 5 along the lines of:

1 Marler, 2 Hartley 3 Cole
4 Launchbury 5 Itoje
6 Robshaw 7 Underhill 8 Billy V

Then have George, Mako V, Synckler?, Lawes, Hughes come on to add some dynamism and impact?

This is what I anticipate Eddy picking (though I would like to see a bit more pace and a line out target introduced into the back row, and see that the scope for doing that would come from picking a fast openside and a no.8 who is lineout target - maybe Simmonds could be used in former capacity and Hughes could be used in this latter capacity?)
Eddy seems to prefer to keep the dynamic players for use as impact rather than as starters - what do others think?

I think Marler needs to step up a gear to even be in the XXIII, let alone starting. He's been decidedly average so far this season and Genge has still been performing even in a pretty awful Leicester pack. I'd say it's more likely to be Mako at 1 and Genge at 17. Other than that, your pack looks pretty close to what I expect to be picked.

Puja

Probably right, though I think Lawes could well start given his form. He could even be an option at 6 but I think Robshaw is one of Eddie's first names on the team sheet.

Agree that Mako likely starts with Genge off the bench

Not sure what Sinckler's absence means for any of this though

Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Surprisingly we're not too far apart on this.

Hope:

1. M. Vunipola
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Launchbury
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. B. Vunipola

16. Hartley
17. Genge
18. Cole
19. Lawes
20. Wilson

Expectation:

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Lawes
5. Itoje
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. B. Vunipola

16. George
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Launchbury
20. Hughes

To be fair, I'm pretty comfortable with either. Even with Kruis injured, the battle for a spot in the second row is the most tricky to call. Personally, I think Launchbury is a better all round player, but Lawes is in the form of his life, so I'd have absolutely no issue with him starting.

I'd prefer Wilson to Hughes on the bench as I think we need to invest some time in developing him as a high quality deputy for Robshaw.

I'd like to see us play a bit more of an experimental team against Samoa. Pack wise, I'd go for:

1. Genge
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Isiekwe
5. Itoje (captain?)
6. Wilson
7. Underhill
8. Hughes

16. Dunn
17. Marler
18. Williams
19. Ewels
20. Curry

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I'm a big Hughes fan but I'd either start him at 8 or leave him out of the 23. I think you need more versatility on the bench unless either he or Billy get significant game time at 6 or 7.

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I think it's telling that Collier is starting ahead of Sinckler today. I strongly suspect it is becasue Kingston/Rowntree feel that he'll be better equipped to cope with Genge.

Even taking club bias out of the equation, I think Collier was more impressive than Williams in Argentina. He massively improved the scrum when he came on and while I appreciate he doesn't offer that much outside of the scrum, neither does Cole these days. I'd say Collier is the best scrummaging prop in the Premiership and used correctly, that could be a real weapon for England.

Scrumhead wrote:

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I think it's telling that Collier is starting ahead of Sinckler today. I strongly suspect it is becasue Kingston/Rowntree feel that he'll be better equipped to cope with Genge.

Even taking club bias out of the equation, I think Collier was more impressive than Williams in Argentina. He massively improved the scrum when he came on and while I appreciate he doesn't offer that much outside of the scrum, neither does Cole these days. I'd say Collier is the best scrummaging prop in the Premiership and used correctly, that could be a real weapon for England.

We've been managing the two of them quite well since Collier's injuries, tbf.

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I like Collier but he is a penalty machine against a decent loosehead.

I'd love to see....

Mako
George
Sinkler
Itoje
Lawes
Robshaw
Clifford
Billy (depending on the injury he's just picked up)

Genge
Hartley (as LCD and Taylor injured)
Cole
Launchbury
Underhill

You watching Clifford today, Jngf?

Mikey Brown wrote:You watching Clifford today, Jngf?

brushed off by Ben Youngs

he's looked good, outside that.

I suspect they'll be a bit of mixing n matching over the 3 games with some experimentation.

Based on the last few weeks, i'd start Genge for at least 2 of the games.

Think Clifford should get a look in at some stage.

fivepointer wrote:I suspect they'll be a bit of mixing n matching over the 3 games with some experimentation.

Based on the last few weeks, i'd start Genge for at least 2 of the games.

Think Clifford should get a look in at some stage.

looks like Billy will be out and Robshaw miss the contact in camp.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I like Collier but he is a penalty machine against a decent loosehead.

As shown today. Genge was all over him and was mostly limited by his own inexperience in continuing to pull him into the floor when it was obvious that a) the ref didn't know what was going on and b) was losing patience. Cost us for the 5m scrum attacking opportunity and then for the yellow - he needs to learn that just because you can embarrass your opposite, doesn't always mean it's the right thing to do. Sometimes you just want the ball out.

Puja

Is Jones still expecting to rest Lions tourists? Because all these teams with Itoje in look a bit off if he is.

Peat wrote:Is Jones still expecting to rest Lions tourists? Because all these teams with Itoje in look a bit off if he is.

No-one's got a scoob anymore.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Peat wrote:Is Jones still expecting to rest Lions tourists? Because all these teams with Itoje in look a bit off if he is.

No-one's got a scoob anymore.

Puja

It all looks very weird doesn't it.

Also, has he really ruled out Clifford in favour of Underhill and T Curry? Robson too? Given Billy Vs injuries building a game plan around him looks odd.

Will we really line up with a triple playmaker midfield (Ford Faz, Slade)?

And us there really any point in keeping Mike Brown. Around any longer? Hes struggling this season to my eyes and hes not getting quicker.

Clifford replaces Billy in the training squad.

fivepointer wrote:Clifford replaces Billy in the training squad.

Presume that's the end of the Hask then. What's the story on Billy, is it a diagnosed bad one?

bitts wrote:

Puja wrote:

Peat wrote:Is Jones still expecting to rest Lions tourists? Because all these teams with Itoje in look a bit off if he is.

No-one's got a scoob anymore.

Puja

It all looks very weird doesn't it.

Also, has he really ruled out Clifford in favour of Underhill and T Curry? Robson too? Given Billy Vs injuries building a game plan around him looks odd.

Will we really line up with a triple playmaker midfield (Ford Faz, Slade)?

And us there really any point in keeping Mike Brown. Around any longer? Hes struggling this season to my eyes and hes not getting quicker.

Brown has been as good as ever this season. I'm really not sure on the alleged struggles? OK, he missed a tackle on Veainu yesterday, but he's not the first to do that. Still one of the best 15s in the league.

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Clifford replaces Billy in the training squad.

Presume that's the end of the Hask then. What's the story on Billy, is it a diagnosed bad one?

Hask's future with England is at 6/bench now imo.

Scrumhead wrote: Brown has been as good as ever this season. I'm really not sure on the alleged struggles? OK, he missed a tackle on Veainu yesterday, but he's not the first to do that. Still one of the best 15s in the league.

He's certainly one of the best 15s in the league, but a bit like Goode that doesn't mean he's test standard. And he's got an ankle injury he apparently made worse yesterday

Edit - Actually it's an interesting one. Given Brown didn't train last week, partly down to a new family arrival and not just the ankle?, should an England EPS player have been stood down for an irrelevant game with the AIs looming? It's highly improbable Quins are going to achieve anything, so if Brown is Eddie's #1 choice this maybe shows there's nothing in the EPS to give England the control they likely still want

Scrumhead wrote:

Stom wrote:

Puja wrote:Eddie's definitely playing silly buggers with Sinckler to get a reaction. To suggest that he wouldn't've got into the Argentina touring squad on form? It is to laugh.

Puja

Indeed. Collier has started the season well, though. He should also be in the mix at 3rd/4th choice. Need some caps into Williams and Collier, imo. But maybe only after the WC, when Cole is gone.

I think it's telling that Collier is starting ahead of Sinckler today. I strongly suspect it is becasue Kingston/Rowntree feel that he'll be better equipped to cope with Genge.

Even taking club bias out of the equation, I think Collier was more impressive than Williams in Argentina. He massively improved the scrum when he came on and while I appreciate he doesn't offer that much outside of the scrum, neither does Cole these days. I'd say Collier is the best scrummaging prop in the Premiership and used correctly, that could be a real weapon for England.

Jones has stated he thinks Collier is Eng's best scrummaging TH a while ago iirc. I don't happen to agree with him, Williams for me. Collier looked like he sorted the scrum in Arg but it was after their first choice LH went off (and rest of their front row was changed?). Can't remember the details now but their TH was causing problems for us? I haven't seen any of the Tigers Quins game yet but it sounds like he struggled against Genge(?) who isn't yet an awesome scrummager.