RugbyRebels

Harlequins squad to play Bath Rugby (Harlequins appearances)

15. Ross Chisholm (80)
14. Charlie Walker (74)
13. Alofa Alofa (37)
12. James Lang (9)
11. Tim Visser (45)
10. Marcus Smith (11)
9. Jono Kitto (1)

1. Lewis Boyce (5)
2. Dave Ward (126)
3. Will Collier (116)
4. Charlie Matthews (148)
5. James Horwill (Captain, 48)
6. Ben Glynn (11)
7. James Chisholm (42)
8. Mat Luamanu (50)

16. Elia Elia (6)
17. Cameron Holenstein (-)
18. Kyle Sinckler (105)
19. Dino Lamb (6)
20. Archie White (8)
21. Ian Prior (-)
22. Henry Cheeseman (7)
23. Gabriel Ibitoye (3)

Bath Rugby team to face Harlequins

15. James Wilson
14. Jack Wilson
13. Matt Banahan
12. Ben Tapuai
11. Aled Brew
10. Freddie Burns
9. Kahn Fotuali’i

1. Beno Obano
2. Tom Dunn
3. Anthony Perenise
4. Luke Charteris
5. Elliott Stooke
6. Matt Garvey (c)
7. Zach Mercer
8. Paul Grant

Replacements

16. Michael van Vuuren
17. Nick Auterac
18. Max Lahiff
19. Levi Douglas
20. Josh Bayliss
21. Chris Cook
22. Josh Lewis
23. Darren Atkins

Two understrength sides there ... not much in it at all.

After a good performance at Sandy Park, I’m hopeful Quins can pick up a rare away win.

Good to see Joseph and Watson not involved.

Mellsblue wrote:Good to see Joseph and Watson not involved.

Agreed - there must've been an understanding between Bath and England for one of them to not at least have been on the bench given how short Bath are currently.

To put a tin foil hat on, I wonder what that suggests for relationships between Sarries and England, given that Eddie's resorted to 25-man squads to ensure Itoje, Mako and Fazlet get weekends off?

Puja

Puja wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:Good to see Joseph and Watson not involved.

Agreed - there must've been an understanding between Bath and England for one of them to not at least have been on the bench given how short Bath are currently.

To put a tin foil hat on, I wonder what that suggests for relationships between Sarries and England, given that Eddie's resorted to 25-man squads to ensure Itoje, Mako and Fazlet get weekends off?

Puja

also not sure why JJ and Watson wouldn't just stay with the England squad and train a bit.

are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Banquo wrote:are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

fair enough, just a question.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

fair enough, just a question.

Bothma was meant to be Wallace's backup at Quins. Then both got injured. So Ward went to 7 temporarily. But then all our other hookers got injured. So Clifford went to 7. But then he got injured. Luckily Chisholm got fit again, so he can move over. Put simply, Quins' injury problems are insane.

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

fair enough, just a question.

Some clubs may have squad depth such they can't supply more than one openside, but Bath have Louw and Underhill and Quins have Wallace and Clifford so they are maybe a touch unfortunate.

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

fair enough, just a question.

Bothma was meant to be Wallace's backup at Quins. Then both got injured. So Ward went to 7 temporarily. But then all our other hookers got injured. So Clifford went to 7. But then he got injured. Luckily Chisholm got fit again, so he can move over. Put simply, Quins' injury problems are insane.

much like their support

Stom wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Stom wrote:
Kind of hard when they're your only fit senior flankers...

fair enough, just a question.

Bothma was meant to be Wallace's backup at Quins. Then both got injured. So Ward went to 7 temporarily. But then all our other hookers got injured. So Clifford went to 7. But then he got injured. Luckily Chisholm got fit again, so he can move over. Put simply, Quins' injury problems are insane.

I’m not sure about that?

I think Bothma was signed as a 6/8 to compete with Robshaw, Clifford and Chisholm.

7 would have been covered by Wallace, Clifford and Ward but for injuries.

Banquo wrote:are Chisholm and Mercer opensides? It seems sides really have taken the new laws to heart!

Not really, no
Mercer is behind Louw (playing for SA this week), Underhill (concussed for England last week) and possibly Ellis (long-term injured) at open side

How did Chisholm not get a red card? It looked on a brief viewing that he tipped the player onto his head

Mitigating circumstances. Walker also had a leg.

So red card both (said without watching it back)

Someone should have got a red. The Bath player landed on their head!

I thought that could/should have been a red - maybe Maxwell-Keys felt pity on Quins. That first 25 minutes was one of the worst Premiership performances I can remember seeing, Quins were utterly dreadful for that. No application or desire in defence. Really surprising Easter is still in his job as defence coach, it's the biggest stumbling block for us. We defend in a really naïve in-to-out way, and it's so easy to pick apart with quick ball to the wings: if Roko was playing, he'd have scored a hat trick; Aled Brew was man of the match!

Just watched it back. Looks a nailed on red for Chisholm every day of the week as he's the player who lifts the leg above horizontal and the player comes down on their head. Just lifting the leg above the horizontal is enough for a yellow these days so how this event was only seen as a yellow by the ref I don't know.

That said I've not seen any directives on how refs should consider mitigation in the form of another player being involved in the tackle. But absent of clarification around that it's not Steve Diamond who should be getting a 6 week ban from rugby stadiums it's the ref as it looks a shocking decision based more on the ref not wanting a 15 Vs 14 game early in the match

It's not the first time we've seen that mitigation from another player also being involved get's the offending player off the hook - but it really shouldn't, in terms of safety, it makes it MORE dangerous; even if it reduces culpability (and it doesn't particularly).
Id have thought red for Chisholm with a yellow for walker would actually have been the fairest result of that little incident; but quite honestly, the next 10 minutes makes be feel quite sanguine about it; and I really would rather talk about the tries by Grant and Stooke instead.

For any neutrals, I'd suggest watching that first 15-20 minutes to see those 3 talking points. There really wasn't much about the rest of the match worth sitting through though.

The big talking point does seem to be the referee not issuing a red card, and I still think the head ref should be coming out on a Monday or Tuesday morning to talk through major points such as this and explain what happened, and what we should expect to happen.

If we must go back to the game and away from referee failings how much longer does Nick Easter have a job?

Bloggs wrote:Really surprising Easter is still in his job as defence coach, it's the biggest stumbling block for us. We defend in a really naïve in-to-out way, and it's so easy to pick apart with quick ball to the wings: if Roko was playing, he'd have scored a hat trick; Aled Brew was man of the match!

I guess it's not hugely surprising with him having come straight from playing into coaching without anything inbetween. Quins seem determined to plug holes with ex-players, like Sarries and Leicester do, but have missed the fact that both those clubs send the newly retired out to coach the kids and work part-time at a ND1 club for a couple of years before promoting internally.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Bloggs wrote:Really surprising Easter is still in his job as defence coach, it's the biggest stumbling block for us. We defend in a really naïve in-to-out way, and it's so easy to pick apart with quick ball to the wings: if Roko was playing, he'd have scored a hat trick; Aled Brew was man of the match!

I guess it's not hugely surprising with him having come straight from playing into coaching without anything inbetween. Quins seem determined to plug holes with ex-players, like Sarries and Leicester do, but have missed the fact that both those clubs send the newly retired out to coach the kids and work part-time at a ND1 club for a couple of years before promoting internally.

Puja

Him and Nick Evans spent time coaching at Wimbledon whilst finishing their last year or two of playing. I heard from somewhere that Evans impressed whilst Easter did not.

Digby wrote: If we must go back to the game and away from referee failings how much longer does Nick Easter have a job?

Unless they can find someone else to play Santa at the Xmas party I think he’s safe till Jan.

Bloggs wrote:

Puja wrote:

Bloggs wrote:Really surprising Easter is still in his job as defence coach, it's the biggest stumbling block for us. We defend in a really naïve in-to-out way, and it's so easy to pick apart with quick ball to the wings: if Roko was playing, he'd have scored a hat trick; Aled Brew was man of the match!

I guess it's not hugely surprising with him having come straight from playing into coaching without anything inbetween. Quins seem determined to plug holes with ex-players, like Sarries and Leicester do, but have missed the fact that both those clubs send the newly retired out to coach the kids and work part-time at a ND1 club for a couple of years before promoting internally.

Puja

Him and Nick Evans spent time coaching at Wimbledon whilst finishing their last year or two of playing. I heard from somewhere that Evans impressed whilst Easter did not.

Well, that's better than I thought, but you'd still expect that having a slightly longer apprenticeship before being chucked into the deep end would be sensible. Apart from anything else, it allows a separation from the playing days - right now Easter's coaching people he was playing with 6 months ago and I'd expect that he's probably more protected from the sack from having been a club legend than by the results he's getting. Should've had at least a season in the academy where he could make mistakes without huge consequences and be quietly shuffled out if it turned out that he just wasn't much cop.

Puja