RugbyRebels

With round 11 done, the season is at the half way point. How is your club doing?

I’ll kick us off with my assessment of Quins:

Overall:

The ‘Kingston Out’ brigade are still in full voice but overall, we are pretty much where I expected us to be.

Premiership:

From an AP point of view our league position and win rate are not what I would hoped for at this stage. However, the only defeats that have really hurt are the opening game against London Irish and the whipping we received from Bath at the Rec (more for the manner of the defeat than the result itself). IMO, the home loss to Leicester is balanced out by beating Saracens and the away win at Wasps.

The middle of the table is very congested with only 3 points separating us in 9th and Leicester in 6 and a couple of good results against the teams around us could change the picture.

Beating Saints shouldn’t be beyond us and I think we need a big result in The Big Game on Saturday to re-ignite our season. Following that we have Sale (A) and Wasps (H) so January is a big month for us.

Champions Cup:

As far as Europe is concerned, it’s been a very poor campaign. No wins and no chance of progressing beyond the group stage isn’t ideal but in a tough group, only the most optimistic fans would have expected us to go further. We were OK in the first game against La Rochelle but poor in every other game and IMO, the poor quality of the performances has hurt more than the actual results.

Personally, I think the odds were always against us. We’re not really good enough for Europe at the moment and as much as I want to see us pushing to improve, I don’t think the Champions Cup has been at all helpful.

Undoubtedly the prospect of Champions Cup rugby makes Quins a more attractive proposition for potential signings but we don’t really have the money to be competing for top players to make this a real issue and if we don’t qualify this season, I won’t be heartbroken.

Positives:

The emergence of some new players is the main positive to take away so far this season.

We started the season with an unheralded import (Catrakilis) and pretty much no-one else and more through luck than judgement, Kingston was forced to play Marcus Smith.

I don’t think anyone would have predicted how quickly Smith would take to senior rugby but so far he’s shown a rare level of skill and maturity and IMO is THE find of the season, not just Quins’ find of the season.

Elia Elia, Renaldo Bothma, Lewis Boyce and James Lang have all shown real promise too, so fair play to Kingston in bringing-in some new talent.

Negatives:

Injuries.

While I appreciate every club has had their fair share this season, we seem to have been hit harder than most. Our squad isn’t anywhere near strong enough to deal with it and at times, we’ve had 2 or 3 second string players playing out of position in our first XV.

Defence.

Woeful. Just woeful. Easter was a great servant to the club as a player. As a defence coach, he is leaving an awful lot to be desired. Any positives in attack are completely undermined by a ridiculously porous defence and it needs addressing pronto. If that means the end of Easter, so be it. It wouldn’t be the first example of a great player failing to make the grade as a coach.

Quins fans, feel free to add.

Fans of other clubs, jump on in with your club’s review.

Hard to add much to that at first glance. The injury situation really has highlighted a lack of depth but the way it piled up in certain positions (backrow) was ridiculous.

Report for Bath, Gloucester, Harlequins, Leicester, Newcastle, Northampton, Sale, Saracens and Wasps:

Capable of beating anyone on our day, but havent managed to put any 80 minute performances in, also capable of looking disinterested and of challenging for a result. Frustratingly inconsistent.

Have spent periods of the season ravaged by injuries, not just affecting selection, but also making us unable to train properly, or to allow any rotation at all, as we've had at least 4 matches where we were down to last man standing for at least half the team. Something must be done to protect the players, ideally allowing us to spend more money with the excuse of increasing squad sizes (but realistically only to pay our stars more money).

Oh, and refs need to be better, whilst given less respect, less help, more professionalism, it no more money.

For Leicester:

Overall: O'Connor is still in his honeymoon period and it is assumed that he needs a season at least to build his kind of side. That's basically the only thing that doesn't make our performance so far completely unacceptable.

Premiership: Several disappointing losses that basically show that our pack is not up to snuff, combined with an inability to convert three tries into try-scoring bonus points have left us 6th. Absolute bare minimum requirements for Leicester is qualification for Europe and at the moment we're clinging onto that by points difference. Needs a massive uptick in the second half.

Champions Cup: Disappointing doesn't cover it. We've been unlucky with injuries and were utterly robbed by John Homer Lacey in the first round, but the two losses to Munster were condemning of our pack selection, preparation and tactics. Munster are not inherently better than us, but we made ourselves inferior and they promptly dismissed us. Deservedly out of the competition.

Positives: The form of Jonny May, George Ford running the show, Toomua finally getting gametime and impressing, Malouf proving an utter bargain. Ford the Lesser proving to be competent 10 cover.

Negatives: The pack. We need a forwards coach, pronto. Aside from that, we need to clear out a lot of dead wood and get some genuine quality into our back 5. Discussed to death already. An actual competent set-piece strategy would be good as well.

Also, Ben Youngs. Alternating between sublime and ridiculous, even more wildly than usual.

Tuilagis - Manu was injured early and then has been utterly dire upon his return. Hands like Erinle, Vision like Tindall, Passing like Hipkiss. I'm hoping that it's rustiness, rather than the witchdoctors having exorcised his talent along with the injuries. Fred Jnr looks like he would not be at a Premiership club if he had a different surname. Powderpuff in contact and no real skills or vision.

Puja

Going through the league (based on their position)

Exeter 45 pts - bearing the mantle of champions extremely well. Managed early season injury crisis and have been very good in the league. European challenge going well until a potentially fatal home defeat. Good side, well coached with good depth. Top 4 certainties.
Saracens 35 pts - last month has been a bit of a reverse but they are still 2nd. 2 defeats to Clermont has made qualification difficult in Europe. Billy and Maro back will give them a boost and they still set a standard most of the league cannot match. Expect them to put recent poor form behind them.
Wasps 34 pts - dreadful early season form but now back and firing. when at their best they are the most watchable team in the league. Still with a chance of progressing in Europe.
Gloucester 33 pts - team of the season so far. well ahead of where most expected them to be. Showing great character and resilience. Home form is strong and should provide basis for finishing in the top 6 at least.
Bath 30 pts - A lot of talent but still unable to play to a consistently high level. Injuries havent helped but they are maddeningly erratic, going from sublime to ridiculous week to week. Our top performers in Europe, though.
Leicester 28 pts - Just in the top 6. will have to work hard and improve a lot to stay there. Abysmal in Europe and only sporadically decent in the league. Disappointing for one of our major clubs.
Newcastle 28 pts - Following up last seasons improvement with a very solid effort in the league. They will challenge top 6 as long as they dont lose too many players to injury. Going very well in Europe.
Sale 28 pts - Have turned things around in the last month. Have a very good top XV, but lack of depth may catch them out. Probably about where we expected them to be.
Harlequins 25 pts - injuries and England call ups have really hurt them. That and a terrible defence, which has conceded more points than anyone bar LI. Underperforming overall but they dont have the quality and depth required to seriously challenge for a top 4 finish. They have been woeful in Europe.
Northampton 22 pts - considering the talent at their disposal, they are comfortably the worst performing team in the league. Removing Mallinder will hopefully start a revival but its been painful to watch such a big club to play so poorly, both in the league and in Europe.
Worcester 18 pts - Have started to play well. Scoring lots of tries - some absolute crackers - and getting some much needed wins. getting a few key players back has lifted them. expect them to consolidate, maybe to move up a place or two, as long as they dont suffer injuries.
London Irish 8 pts - that win the first game flattered to deceive. they have been pretty dreadful, lacking quality in almost every area . They look odds on to go back to the Championship.

I expect the top 3 to remain as they are. They are the best teams in the league. The battle for 4th spot is going to be very interesting, as will the top 6 as a surge from one or two of the sides could prove decisive. I think Irish will almost certainly be relegated.

That’s a fair summary.

I can’t see any other outcome than London Irish being relegated. It would require a complete implosion from Worcester and massive upturn in performance from Irish and crucially, it’s almost as hard to see the latter as it is the former.

Fourth place will be interesting. I’m not sure Gloucester have the experience or consistency to maintain their form, but I could say the same about Bath and Leicester.

Newcastle, Sale and Quins could still make a push for the play-offs but I’d say lack the quality in depth make that unlikely.

Saints are impossible to predict. If they can rediscover the form the showed for that brief run of wins they could climb the table. If not, 9th or 10th is a distinct possibility.

On reflection, perhaps Gloucester DO have a chance of staying in 4th.

I’d still question whether they have the experience to maintain the consistency they will need, but they have a number of players returning (or close to returning) who will make a big difference to their quality and depth.

Marshall, Woodward, Rapava-Ruskin, Morgan, Rowan etc. will all be strong contenders for their match-day 23 which can only help them.

Scrumhead wrote:That’s a fair summary.

I can’t see any other outcome than London Irish being relegated. It would require a complete implosion from Northampton and massive upturn in performance from Irish and crucially, it’s almost as hard to see the latter as it is the former.

FTFY.

Puja

Puja, any chance you could unlock and bump the prediction thread so we can give ourselves a half-season review?

Mellsblue wrote:Puja, any chance you could unlock and bump the prediction thread so we can give ourselves a half-season review?

Will give it a go - at the outlaws' without my laptop, so I'll see if it can be done via my phone.

Puja

Overall: 50/50 when we where on a run we looked great, but just not good enough currently.
Premiership: Tale of two halfs won like 6 games in a row but have struggled either end of the half season.
Champions Cup: Shit with a capital S
Positives: Ford, Toomua, May axis looks great.
Negatives: Backs depth not good enough and Starting forwards not good enough.

I don't mind some of our back 5 forwards really but alot of them seem to be 2nd/3rd choice rather than starting e.g. Kalamfoni I like him a hard worker BUT he is a starting 8 IMO, need to chop some of the SH forwards Mauger signed IMO Fitzgerald and BOC and look to reinvest with players more used to the NH style (Spencer and Thompson) and look to make cap space for a dynamic ball carrier in that back row and to carry on developing Mapaplangi as a impact player.

Backs wise our 12,13,15 back up isn't good enough we have some good academy players who could fit in but a quality back up for Toomua is key IMO, would also take a quality back up for May and Veainu.

Scrumhead wrote:That’s a fair summary.

I can’t see any other outcome than London Irish being relegated. It would require a complete implosion from Worcester and massive upturn in performance from Irish and crucially, it’s almost as hard to see the latter as it is the former.
.

Worcester have just made Alan Solomon's coach though so that try scoring stuff will stop pretty quickly.

Meh, Wuss are safe now.
TBH I don't see LIrish getting another 10 points, let alone 10 more points than Wuss.
They should start preparing for next season (as much as they can if they don't plan to keep Solomons), getting experience into the youngsters, especially in favour of players who won't be around next year.

Which Tyler wrote:Meh, Wuss are safe now.
TBH I don't see LIrish getting another 10 points, let alone 10 more points than Wuss.
They should start preparing for next season (as much as they can if they don't plan to keep Solomons), getting experience into the youngsters, especially in favour of players who won't be around next year.

Get experience into youngsters and avoid playing those who won't be there next year? Bit contradictory that advice, isn't it?

Puja

To be fair, Worcester have been pretty good at bringing through young players either through their own academy or those that have been let go by other clubs.

Singleton (Saracens) and Humphreys (Leicester) are two examples. They’ve been less successful with Olver (Saints) and Howe (Wasps), but it’s not a bad model.

Scrumhead wrote:To be fair, Worcester have been pretty good at bringing through young players either through their own academy or those that have been let go by other clubs.

Singleton (Saracens) and Humphreys (Leicester) are two examples. They’ve been less successful with Olver (Saints) and Howe (Wasps), but it’s not a bad model.

Oh no - that's definitely true. I was making a flippant comment based around the fact that most of the DoR's in the AP are drawing up their shopping lists of Worcester's youngsters as we speak.

Puja

If(When) Leicester lose to Exeter tomorrow, we'll be finishing the year in 9th. Granted, I know it's small margins amongst the mid-table, but that is just plain not acceptable from a Leicester side, rebuilding or no rebuilding.

Puja

Puja wrote:If(When) Leicester lose to Exeter tomorrow, we'll be finishing the year in 9th. Granted, I know it's small margins amongst the mid-table, but that is just plain not acceptable from a Leicester side, rebuilding or no rebuilding.

Puja

Is it any consolation to suggest that (on paper) your current backline with any Leicester pack from 10-20 years back would probably be mincing most of these teams? Oh no. Wait. That's the whole issue isn't it? Sorry.

Mikey Brown wrote:

Puja wrote:If(When) Leicester lose to Exeter tomorrow, we'll be finishing the year in 9th. Granted, I know it's small margins amongst the mid-table, but that is just plain not acceptable from a Leicester side, rebuilding or no rebuilding.

Puja

Is it any consolation to suggest that (on paper) your current backline with any Leicester pack from 10-20 years back would probably be mincing most of these teams? Oh no. Wait. That's the whole issue isn't it? Sorry.

Thanks Mikey. You're such a comfort.

Puja

Puja wrote:If(When) Leicester lose to Exeter tomorrow, we'll be finishing the year in 9th. Granted, I know it's small margins amongst the mid-table, but that is just plain not acceptable from a Leicester side, rebuilding or no rebuilding.

Puja

Hasn't Leicester for the past 3-4 years been in the bottom half of the table come January but the almost always end up in the top 4? Granted they do seem more fragile this year but they're always written off at christmas and then come good later on.

New poster so go easy on me, but I thought I would give you my thoughts on Worcester's season so far...

Overall....Oddly for a team sitting in 11th, optimistic for our future.

Premiership....We have had one of our worst ever 1st quarters of a season followed by our best ever 2nd quarter. The away win at Leicester, having never won there or indeed really ever winning away, was a massive highlight. Injuries to pretty much every player (I think Bower, O'Callaghan and Adams are the only players who haven't had an injury so far) and having a smaller squad this year really destroyed our start to the season. Our starting 15 is great but we do not have the depth to cope with the amount of injuries we have had. Since Quins away our season has really turned the corner. The return of Ryan Mills, Hougaard and the introduction of Jono Lance and Alan Solomons coming in has made a massive difference.

Europe...The first season for a long time in which we have taken Europe a little more seriously. unfortunately injuries again have forced us to play weaker sides. Still doing ok and I think we stand an outside chance of qualifying for the next round as a runner-up. Normally by this time we are down and out.

Anglo-Welsh....Mainly played the younger youngsters in this comp. Captained by 20 year old Will Butler who looks promising. Players like Ollie Lawrence, Tom Howe and Huw Taylor have put in good performances.

Positives...Certain players have been outstanding. Will Spencer is massive. Ryan Mills has really got our attack ticking. Josh Adams has stopped panicking when he gets near the try line and is looking a real handful. Denton is wrecking ball and for me our best player almost every week is Sam Lewis, the guy is everywhere on the pitch.

Negatives....Start to the season. Ben Te'o, again does not look like the player he does when playing internationally, hopefully that will change when he plays with hougaard and Mills.

The off field stuff is the major concern though. The Allens have said that they will back the club until the right buyers are found but some of the rumours are very worrying!! The sooner this is sorted the better for everyone!
Its great the DoR situation is sorted but with apparently half our squads contracts up we need some serious discussions going on this week!!

Sorry that was much more than in planned to write!

Good to get a fuller perspective about Worcester. The way they have turned things around has been impressive.

fivepointer wrote:Good to get a fuller perspective about Worcester. The way they have turned things around has been impressive.

lets hope the ownership question is settled in a good way for English rugby- is Duckworth involved at all?

How is Will Butler doing?

If you could move Te’o on, especially with a transfer fee, it might be worth considering.

Banquo wrote:

fivepointer wrote:Good to get a fuller perspective about Worcester. The way they have turned things around has been impressive.

lets hope the ownership question is settled in a good way for English rugby- is Duckworth involved at all?

How is Will Butler doing?

I believe Cecil Duckworth had put a consortium together and said he would come in if needed but was happy with the way things were going with the bidders.

Will Butler was made captain for A/W cup to try and develop his confidence. He has done quite well, it's unfortunate for him that 12 (Mills, Te'o, Willison) is quite a well stocked area for us. Definitely one to keep an eye on though.