RugbyRebels

There’s always so much debate when squads come up, but I don’t recall having seen a definitive list of who each of the regular posters would pick in their EPS.

Pick it like the real EPS as if it were for a full season, rather than worrying too much about injuries/suspensions etc

Mine would be:

Prop

Marler, M. Vunipola, Genge, Cole*, Sinckler, Williams, Obano

Hooker

George, Cowan-Dickie, Hartley*, Dunn

Lock

Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewels

Flanker

Robshaw, Underhill, Wilson, Armand, B. Curry, Clifford

Number 8

B. Vunipola, Hughes, Simmonds, Mercer

Scrum Half

B. Youngs, Care, Robson

Fly Half

Ford, Farrell, Smith

Centre

Joseph, Slade, Te’o, Lozowski, Francis, Marchant

Wing

Daly, May, Nowell, Woodburn, Lewington

Fullback

Brown, Watson

*These two were my least happy picks. However, at this point in the World Cup cycle, I’d be concerned about the amount of time we have to get their successors up to speed to the point we can leave them out of the 45 entirely.

The italicised players are injury cover. I know that I said ignore injuries, but in the case of Tuilagi and Taylor, I think both need a while to get back to challenging for an EPS place.

I’ve gone for 9 uncapped players there as well as a few like Wilson or Armand with 1 or 2 caps but none that are overly controversial IMO. Effectively Woodburn and Lewington would be replacing Solomona and Yarde.

My actual 23 is probably a wee bit more controversial.

1. Marler
2. George
3. Williams
4. Itoje
5. Launchbury
6. Robshaw
7. Simmonds
8. B. Vunipola
9. Care
10. Ford
11. Daly
12. Te’o
13. Joseph
14. May
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Lawes
20. Wilson
21. Robson
22. Farrell
23. Slade

Who would you pick?

Props - If 7 picked i'd go for an extra TH rather than a LH. Schonert for Obano
Hooker - I wouldnt pick Hartley. Taylor's injured but he would still get my vote.
Locks - agreed, though i'm tempted by Spencer to replace Kruis or Isiekwe
Back row - again no dispute. T Curry comes into the reckoning when fit and there is Sam Jones to consider. I really like Tom Willis but its probably too soon.
SH - i'd pick 4 with Spencer as my final pick
FH - Cips for Smith. The youngsters time will come but right now Cips is the superior player and too good to leave out
Centre - I'd omit Francis in favour of a 4th SH
Wing - I'd have Roko (proven try scorer) and Earle (he has got something and is worth persevering with) over Woodburn and Lewington
FB - just the 2 which is a bit of a concern. Who would be our 3rd choice?

I’m not sure Eddie would feel the same, but Goode would be my third choice fullback.

In reality, I’d be very tempted to play Daly at fullback if Watson and Brown were unavailable, but for all his detractors, Goode is easily good enough to be an emergency 3rd/4th choice fullback and Haley and Woodward haven’t shown enough to be considered better options IMO.

I would go for:

George, LCD, Taylor
Mako, Marler, Genge
Cole, Sinckler, WIlliams, Thomas
Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Ewels, Isiekwe
Robshaw, Armand, TCurry, BCurry, Underhill
Billy, Hughes, Clifford, Simmonds
Care, Youngs, Robson, Spencer
Ford, Farrell, Lozowski, Smith
Slade, Joseph, Tuilagi, Te'o, Marchant
May, Daly, Nowell, Walker, Roko
Watson, Brown

Props: Thomas, Sinckler, Williams, Mako, Marler, Genge.

Hookers: George, LCD, Taylor.

Locks: Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis, Isiekwe.

Flankers: Robshaw, Curry, Curry, Armand, Underhill, Wilson.

8's: Billy, Hughes, Simmonds, Mercer.

Scrum-Halves: Youngs, Care, Spencer.

Fly-Halves: Ford, Lozowski, Smith.

Centres: Farrell, Slade, Joseph, Teo, Francis, Marchant.

Back 3: Brown, Watson, Daly, May, Nowell, Solomona, Cokanasiga, Woodward, Marshall.

Obviously this is on the assumption that all were fit. Also, I'd have picked Rhodes if he were qualified, and I'd probably be doing the same with Shields come the summer.

There are really just debates around the fringes. If I think about whether players could be genuine candidates for a starting 23 in a big RWC game, I'd have doubts about Smith, the Currys, Kruis and Francis, for example, but I'd have none about Cipriani.

On those fringes, would retaining experienced cover (Hartley and Haskell perhaps?) be more beneficial than giving youth experience? All the evidence suggests that Eddie will opt for experience. He's probably right.

But thats the skill of the coach, knowing when to move out old, tired legs and bring in fresh talent. Frankly i'd be very concerned if Hartley and Haskell are in the England squad in a years time, let alone for the WC.
The WC is just under 2 years away (about 20 games), so there is time to bring in new players.

Oakboy wrote:There are really just debates around the fringes. If I think about whether players could be genuine candidates for a starting 23 in a big RWC game, I'd have doubts about Smith, the Currys, Kruis and Francis, for example, but I'd have none about Cipriani.

On those fringes, would retaining experienced cover (Hartley and Haskell perhaps?) be more beneficial than giving youth experience? All the evidence suggests that Eddie will opt for experience. He's probably right.

I can’t believe you would have no doubts about Cipriani in a big World Cup game. He’s a good player but has had a fair number of melt downs and brain farts over the years, particularly when put under pressure - See Leinster Champions Cup QF last season for eg.

And on your second point, while Eddie has largely favoured experienced players in his team, on the ‘fringes’ I feel he’s tended to want to involve as many young players as possible. Unless I misunderstand your point?

Think Cips also works best when familiar with his team mates and their running lines.

Timbo wrote: And on your second point, while Eddie has largely favoured experienced players in his team, on the ‘fringes’ I feel he’s tended to want to involve as many young players as possible. Unless I misunderstand your point?

I think he's picked youngsters when he judged it not to matter - reasonable enough to get them used to the camp atmosphere and to see for himself if, character-wise, they cut it. Maybe, guessing obviously, he rates Underhill in that respect but not one or two others? Beyond that, he's retained Hartley and Cole in his starting XVs and recalled Haskell to the training squad.

fivepointer wrote:But thats the skill of the coach, knowing when to move out old, tired legs and bring in fresh talent. Frankly i'd be very concerned if Hartley and Haskell are in the England squad in a years time, let alone for the WC.
The WC is just under 2 years away (about 20 games), so there is time to bring in new players.

I agree with the first paragraph but have doubts about the second. IF, Eddie identifies a young player who really convinces, there is time over 20 matches perhaps but is there time for a player to fail and the next one to be tried? I can't see him experimenting much, if at all, in 6N matches. I suspect he will consider those to be competitive games that he will want to win with his best team. He certainly won't experiment against NZ. Realistically, therefore, he might have what, 5 - 8 games in which to juggle? We'll never second guess the man but I'd bet he has 18 of his starting RWC 23 inked in at least.

You are a better judge of young talent than me based on posts over a few years now. How many uncapped players really stand out for you demanding a trial?

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:But thats the skill of the coach, knowing when to move out old, tired legs and bring in fresh talent. Frankly i'd be very concerned if Hartley and Haskell are in the England squad in a years time, let alone for the WC.
The WC is just under 2 years away (about 20 games), so there is time to bring in new players.

I agree with the first paragraph but have doubts about the second. IF, Eddie identifies a young player who really convinces, there is time over 20 matches perhaps but is there time for a player to fail and the next one to be tried? I can't see him experimenting much, if at all, in 6N matches. I suspect he will consider those to be competitive games that he will want to win with his best team. He certainly won't experiment against NZ. Realistically, therefore, he might have what, 5 - 8 games in which to juggle? We'll never second guess the man but I'd bet he has 18 of his starting RWC 23 inked in at least.

You are a better judge of young talent than me based on posts over a few years now. How many uncapped players really stand out for you demanding a trial?

Stand out enough that they're good enough to be a WC squad player? That they're better than the incumbent squad players?

Well, Curry and Mercer in the backrow.
Taylor at hooker was before injury.

There are a few others who have a handful of caps who really deserve a look in at some point, but that wasn't your question.

Hookers - George, Taylor, LCD
Looseheads - Vunipola, Marler, Genge
Tightheads - Cole, Sinckler, Hill, Williams
Locks - Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis
Back Row, Curry, Curry, Kvesic, Robshaw, Clifford, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola

22 Forwards

Scrumhalves - Care, Youngs, Robson
Flyhalves - Cirpiani, Ford, Farrell
Centres - Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade, Marchant
Wings - Wade, May, Daly, Rokoguguni
Back Three Watson, Lozowski, Nowell

18 Back

I struggled a bit to get up to that many players, not that desperate to add in another 5

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:But thats the skill of the coach, knowing when to move out old, tired legs and bring in fresh talent. Frankly i'd be very concerned if Hartley and Haskell are in the England squad in a years time, let alone for the WC.
The WC is just under 2 years away (about 20 games), so there is time to bring in new players.

I agree with the first paragraph but have doubts about the second. IF, Eddie identifies a young player who really convinces, there is time over 20 matches perhaps but is there time for a player to fail and the next one to be tried? I can't see him experimenting much, if at all, in 6N matches. I suspect he will consider those to be competitive games that he will want to win with his best team. He certainly won't experiment against NZ. Realistically, therefore, he might have what, 5 - 8 games in which to juggle? We'll never second guess the man but I'd bet he has 18 of his starting RWC 23 inked in at least.

You are a better judge of young talent than me based on posts over a few years now. How many uncapped players really stand out for you demanding a trial?

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said there. However, I think we’ve all learned that Eddie can always spring a surprise.

As far as young players who have stood out enough to demand a trial, I’d say Ben Curry is the obvious one. He’s been in great form all season and with his twin brother and Underhill injured, I can’t see why he wasn’t selected instead of Gary Graham.

Jack Willis has also really impressed for Wasps so I wouldn’t have been disappointed to see him either and Ben Vellacott would have been my wildcard had Eddie not decided to continue overlooking a third scrum half.

As Stom said, I actually think there’s been more disappointment over players who aren’t exactly young players, but are oddly undervalued - specifically, Robson, Wilson and Armand.

Personally, I do think Eddie will continue to change things but I think he is going to go full poach and call up Michael Rhodes and Brad Shields as soon as he’s able to.

LH: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hepburn
Hooker: Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
TH: Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Thomas
Lock: Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe
Flankers: Robshaw, Wilson, Curry, Curry, Underhill, Chisholm
No 8: Billy, Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford, Mercer

SH: Youngs, Care, Robson, Spencer
FH: Ford, Farrell, Smith
Centres: Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Marchant
Wing: May, Daly, Nowell, Roko, Earle
FB: Watson

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

fivepointer wrote:But thats the skill of the coach, knowing when to move out old, tired legs and bring in fresh talent. Frankly i'd be very concerned if Hartley and Haskell are in the England squad in a years time, let alone for the WC.
The WC is just under 2 years away (about 20 games), so there is time to bring in new players.

I agree with the first paragraph but have doubts about the second. IF, Eddie identifies a young player who really convinces, there is time over 20 matches perhaps but is there time for a player to fail and the next one to be tried? I can't see him experimenting much, if at all, in 6N matches. I suspect he will consider those to be competitive games that he will want to win with his best team. He certainly won't experiment against NZ. Realistically, therefore, he might have what, 5 - 8 games in which to juggle? We'll never second guess the man but I'd bet he has 18 of his starting RWC 23 inked in at least.

You are a better judge of young talent than me based on posts over a few years now. How many uncapped players really stand out for you demanding a trial?

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said there. However, I think we’ve all learned that Eddie can always spring a surprise.

As far as young players who have stood out enough to demand a trial, I’d say Ben Curry is the obvious one. He’s been in great form all season and with his twin brother and Underhill injured, I can’t see why he wasn’t selected instead of Gary Graham.

Jack Willis has also really impressed for Wasps so I wouldn’t have been disappointed to see him either and Ben Vellacott would have been my wildcard had Eddie not decided to continue overlooking a third scrum half.

As Stom said, I actually think there’s been more disappointment over players who aren’t exactly young players, but are oddly undervalued - specifically, Robson, Wilson and Armand.

Personally, I do think Eddie will continue to change things but I think he is going to go full poach and call up Michael Rhodes and Brad Shields as soon as he’s able to.

I would not be surprised by Rhodes getting a call, especially if Sarries continue to get back on track with him involved. It's interesting that he calls on Graham from a lesser-fancied side yet ignores Armand from Exeter whose performances reflect grit and style at the table-top. I like both their young locks too, Hill and Skinner, not that I know much about them.

If Eddie wants a back-row jackal, Willis has the best potential of those I have seen.

Mellsblue wrote:LH: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hepburn
Hooker: Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
TH: Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Thomas
Lock: Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe
Flankers: Robshaw, Wilson, Curry, Curry, Underhill, Chisholm
No 8: Billy, Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford, Mercer

SH: Youngs, Care, Robson, Spencer
FH: Ford, Farrell, Smith
Centres: Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Marchant
Wing: May, Daly, Nowell, Roko, Earle
FB: Watson

MB, Hartley but not Brown or Haskell?

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:LH: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hepburn
Hooker: Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
TH: Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Thomas
Lock: Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe
Flankers: Robshaw, Wilson, Curry, Curry, Underhill, Chisholm
No 8: Billy, Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford, Mercer

SH: Youngs, Care, Robson, Spencer
FH: Ford, Farrell, Smith
Centres: Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Marchant
Wing: May, Daly, Nowell, Roko, Earle
FB: Watson

MB, Hartley but not Brown or Haskell?

Brown should be in there.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:LH: Mako, Marler, Genge, Hepburn
Hooker: Hartley, George, LCD, Taylor
TH: Cole, Sinckler, Williams, Thomas
Lock: Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe
Flankers: Robshaw, Wilson, Curry, Curry, Underhill, Chisholm
No 8: Billy, Hughes, Simmonds, Clifford, Mercer

SH: Youngs, Care, Robson, Spencer
FH: Ford, Farrell, Smith
Centres: Lozowski, Slade, Joseph, Marchant
Wing: May, Daly, Nowell, Roko, Earle
FB: Watson

MB, Hartley but not Brown or Haskell?

Brown should be in there.

Could or should?

Digby wrote:Hookers - George, Taylor, LCD
Looseheads - Vunipola, Marler, Genge
Tightheads - Cole, Sinckler, Hill, Williams
Locks - Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis
Back Row, Curry, Curry, Kvesic, Robshaw, Clifford, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola

22 Forwards

Scrumhalves - Care, Youngs, Robson
Flyhalves - Cirpiani, Ford, Farrell
Centres - Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade, Marchant
Wings - Wade, May, Daly, Rokoguguni
Back Three Watson, Lozowski, Nowell

18 Back

I struggled a bit to get up to that many players, not that desperate to add in another 5

Pretty much the same for me; Faz is a 10 and that alone. I might take Isiekwe over a struggling Kruis, but I really like Kruis when he is firing. If Burns were starting for Bath and playing well, I might take him over Cipriani; I also like Teo, but a fit Tuilagi would do. I also like Lozowski, and think he could make a go of three positions, but needs to find one; ditto Nowell, though I still think he is a poor defender.

Like you, I don't see the point of 45. If pushed I'd add in Ben Spencer, Marcus Smith, Vellacott

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Hookers - George, Taylor, LCD
Looseheads - Vunipola, Marler, Genge
Tightheads - Cole, Sinckler, Hill, Williams
Locks - Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis
Back Row, Curry, Curry, Kvesic, Robshaw, Clifford, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola

22 Forwards

Scrumhalves - Care, Youngs, Robson
Flyhalves - Cirpiani, Ford, Farrell
Centres - Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade, Marchant
Wings - Wade, May, Daly, Rokoguguni
Back Three Watson, Lozowski, Nowell

18 Back

I struggled a bit to get up to that many players, not that desperate to add in another 5

Pretty much the same for me; Faz is a 10 and that alone. I might take Isiekwe over a struggling Kruis, but I really like Kruis when he is firing. If Burns were starting for Bath and playing well, I might take him over Cipriani; I also like Teo, but a fit Tuilagi would do. I also like Lozowski, and think he could make a go of three positions, but needs to find one; ditto Nowell, though I still think he is a poor defender.

Like you, I don't see the point of 45. If pushed I'd add in Ben Spencer, Marcus Smith, Vellacott

I'm struggling rally to see why you'd want more than a 35 man squad. Even working with 35 is often going to see a few players doing nothing. It's fine for fitness work, and for some rugby games, but any structure work is going to push people to the sidelines.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:
Like you, I don't see the point of 45. If pushed I'd add in Ben Spencer, Marcus Smith, Vellacott

I'm struggling rally to see why you'd want more than a 35 man squad. Even working with 35 is often going to see a few players doing nothing. It's fine for fitness work, and for some rugby games, but any structure work is going to push people to the sidelines.

Where does the number come from apart from Eddie several times mentioning that he wants three for every position?

Digby wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

MB, Hartley but not Brown or Haskell?

Brown should be in there.

Could or should?

I’d have him there for the same reason as Hartley - driven, experienced player who could do job if needs be. Hartley would be third/fourth choice hooker and Brown third choice fb.

Digby wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Digby wrote:Hookers - George, Taylor, LCD
Looseheads - Vunipola, Marler, Genge
Tightheads - Cole, Sinckler, Hill, Williams
Locks - Itoje, Launchbury, Lawes, Kruis
Back Row, Curry, Curry, Kvesic, Robshaw, Clifford, Simmonds, Hughes, Vunipola

22 Forwards

Scrumhalves - Care, Youngs, Robson
Flyhalves - Cirpiani, Ford, Farrell
Centres - Eastmond, Tuilagi, Joseph, Slade, Marchant
Wings - Wade, May, Daly, Rokoguguni
Back Three Watson, Lozowski, Nowell

18 Back

I struggled a bit to get up to that many players, not that desperate to add in another 5

Pretty much the same for me; Faz is a 10 and that alone. I might take Isiekwe over a struggling Kruis, but I really like Kruis when he is firing. If Burns were starting for Bath and playing well, I might take him over Cipriani; I also like Teo, but a fit Tuilagi would do. I also like Lozowski, and think he could make a go of three positions, but needs to find one; ditto Nowell, though I still think he is a poor defender.

Like you, I don't see the point of 45. If pushed I'd add in Ben Spencer, Marcus Smith, Vellacott

I'm struggling rally to see why you'd want more than a 35 man squad. Even working with 35 is often going to see a few players doing nothing. It's fine for fitness work, and for some rugby games, but any structure work is going to push people to the sidelines.

It’s the EPS squad, ie those Jones would like more control over. There’s no need for him to call all 45 into camp.

They never call 45 in to camp.

It’s 45 primarily to enable experimentation and to manage form and injuries.