6N Back Row

[Rich]

With Billy V's broken forearm the back row is looking under-strength especially with Hughes out too. Plus maybe Haskell banned for his red card ?

Could we be going to Rome on 4th February with a back row of:

Robshaw (6) - Simmonds (8) - Underhill (7)


That would be the smallest England back row since I can remember.

[Mellsblue]

Might aswell not bother going.

[Rich]

Would anyone like to see Ben Morgan come back at No 8 ?

A complete left field selection might be a call for Dave Ewers ?

[Digby]

If this year is about building for the WC then right now I'd pick

6 - Robshaw
7 - Kvesic
8 - Simmonds

or

6 - Robshaw
7 - Simmonds
8 - Mercer

Very unlikely either of those wins a 6N

[twitchy]

The back row posted is completely unbalanced. Every one can surely see that. You need a unit that fulfils roles. Morgan could possibly come back in. Ewers shouldn't be considered "left field".

[Puja]

Would anyone like to see Ben Morgan come back at No 8 ?

A complete left field selection might be a call for Dave Ewers ?

I think you might be on your own with the Ben Morgan shout. If we could have 2014!Morgan, I'd take that in a heartbeat, but modern day Morgan is distinctly underwhelming.

Ewers looked good against Montpellier. The gripe I've always had with him was that his carrying technique was appalling and he relied on his power to get him out of trouble that he never should have been in. Looked like someone had being doing some work with him on that, which is promising. Mind, he's 27, so he's dead to Eddie already, and if we're going to call up a Chief, Armand is front of the queue.

While Simmonds is small, he does make awfully good use of the weight that he has - he targets weak shoulders, moves his feet, and continues driving through contact rather than stopping just before (Mike Williams). I'd actually rate him as more Billy-like than Hughes is in his ability to make ground with bad ball and to make busts against set defences, so I'm entirely unbothered by his weight. Robshaw, Underhill, and Simmonds will suit me fine.

Puja

[Puja]

The back row posted is completely unbalanced. Every one can surely see that. You need a unit that fulfils roles. Morgan could possibly come back in. Ewers shouldn't be considered "left field".

I disagree. Simmond sis good at carrying bad ball and making busts, all three are good at the ruck, Robshaw's a good recycling carrier, Underhill's the Worsley-esque stopper. What exactly do you see them missing as a unit to make them unbalanced?

Puja

[Digby]

Why would Underhill suit fine?

[Puja]

Why would Underhill suit fine?

For a start, he regularly starts for his club at number 7, which puts him above a few other options.

Underhill isn't yet a great player, but he's proven capable at international level, has been good at the breakdown and in defence and showed some signs of his carrying game coming back against the Scarlets. I basically look upon him as a lesser version of Robshaw. That's not a great compliment, but we're not overflowing with other options right now and he does complement the actual Robshww quite nicely.

Puja

[twitchy]

You are asking simmonds to play a completely different role in that england back row though. He works for exeter by being matched with armand and ewers who he plays off. Who is going to be setting him up with these opportunities out of robshaw and underhill?

[Mellsblue]

It’s Italy. I’d go:
6. Underhill
7. Kvesic
8. Simmonds

20. Mercer.


I’d then tell Underhill and Kvesic that it’s a straight fight for the 7 shirt as Robshaw will back in the team next week. This will have the added benefit of giving Robshaws’ troublesome back another week.

[Puja]

You are asking simmonds to play a completely different role in that england back row though. He works for exeter by being matched with armand and ewers who he plays off. Who is going to be setting him up with these opportunities out of robshaw and underhill?

I'm not sure I am really. Simmonds doesn't shirk the tight work for Exeter and just sit out wide looking for the glory-play (a la Hughes) - he's often the guy taking it up first receiver, offering options off the 9 and 10, carrying hard into traffic. I can't say I often notice Armand and Ewers "setting him up" - he tends to make his own way.

Puja

[fivepointer]

The options -
Robshaw, Simmonds, Mercer
Robshaw, Haskell, Simmonds
Itoje, Underhill, Simmonds
Itoje, Robshaw, Mercer
Haskell, Graham, Simmonds
Robshaw, Graham, Mercer
Lawes, Simmonds, Chisholm
Lawes, Robshaw, Chisholm
Robshaw, Underhill, Simmonds
Robshaw, Armand, Mercer
Armand, Graham, Simmonds
Robshaw, Graham, Wilson
Wilson, Underhill, Mercer
Itoje, Graham, Chisholm

my brain is now hurting. And thats without B Curry, Kvesic, Ewers, J Ross, Wray or Tom Wood

[Mellsblue]

You are asking simmonds to play a completely different role in that england back row though. He works for exeter by being matched with armand and ewers who he plays off. Who is going to be setting him up with these opportunities out of robshaw and underhill?

Considering Ewers has been injured for virtually the entire time Simmonds has been in the Exeter 1stXV that’s not really valid. Furthermore, no player in the England team plays in a unit exactly the same as they do at their club - nobody walks in to the England setup and gets to play exactly the same role as they do for their club.
I thought Simmonds was excellent against Samoa and he didn’t have Ewers and Armand clones next to him then.

[Digby]

Why would Underhill suit fine?

For a start, he regularly starts for his club at number 7, which puts him above a few other options.

Underhill isn't yet a great player, but he's proven capable at international level, has been good at the breakdown and in defence and showed some signs of his carrying game coming back against the Scarlets. I basically look upon him as a lesser version of Robshaw. That's not a great compliment, but we're not overflowing with other options right now and he does complement the actual Robshww quite nicely.

Puja

Compliments in the sense we'd have two slower flankers? If playing 7 rules out Kvesic for not playing and Simmods for not playing 7 I'd still much rather look at Curry than Underhill. The tackling Underhill has shown on the gainline is good, but other than that there's nothing that looks that interesting when it comes to test rugby. I don't even know he's that good in defence (bar some big tackles for his size) and at the breakdown. As a for instance the Parkes try was annoying to me, nothing he can do about it as it happens, but he doesn't know Parkes will end up with the ball and the score, and I'm not expecting him to let his opposite number just run in behind him so easily, he's not working hard enough nor blocking/cheating call it what you will enough, I'm also not sure why he's stood so far from Mercer when the lines is coming up but that could be something that Bath are looking for him to do in that scenario

[twitchy]

Samoa are samoa. My point really is that exeter play a very specific way and simmonds fits into that well because he is surrounded by other carriers and they build pressure and tire out the opposition.

I just don't see how he fits in as the sole ball carrier vs top quality test defences in the six nations. I think the same with mercer currently as well to be honest. They are both top quality rugby players but don't fit the role.

[Digby]

You are asking simmonds to play a completely different role in that england back row though. He works for exeter by being matched with armand and ewers who he plays off. Who is going to be setting him up with these opportunities out of robshaw and underhill?

I'm not sure I am really. Simmonds doesn't shirk the tight work for Exeter and just sit out wide looking for the glory-play (a la Hughes) - he's often the guy taking it up first receiver, offering options off the 9 and 10, carrying hard into traffic. I can't say I often notice Armand and Ewers "setting him up" - he tends to make his own way.

Puja

I think Simmonds does a bit of both for Exeter, works through the middle and out wide. Exeter tend to run forwards in pods of 3, either 1 pod of or 2 pods of depending on who's in the line, on the ground and where they are on the field, and they very often have Simmonds as the front carrier in a pod of 3 or have him wide if he's an extra not in a pod, and it's the front of the triangle pod who'll make a decision not only to carry but to carry into contact or pass left/right to another player in the pod. But Exeter aren't forced to use him over and over as they've this weird idea that with players like Hepburn, LCD, Williams, Armand, Ewers, Waldrom... they can have more than one carrier. What Exeter will do with all those carriers is repeat target the same defender in the line (normally a guard or man 2 out) so as the defence reloads against the Exter multiphase attack the same defenders are having to make tackle after tackle, and by the 3rd/4th tackle by the same defender (maybe 8-10 phases) Exeter are starting to win the collision 'cause the defender is blowing hard and then once they're going forwards Steenson and Slade look to move the attack around more. It's the pattern to make the same defenders repeat tackle as the defence reloads that's the Exeter variant to such as the Sarries box kick, though a lot of Simmonds actual work on the carry is what we'd see from Mako, and that's certainly hard carries through traffic, Simmonds could use a better handling game in all this

[Oakboy]

Would anyone like to see Ben Morgan come back at No 8 ?

A complete left field selection might be a call for Dave Ewers ?

I think you might be on your own with the Ben Morgan shout. If we could have 2014!Morgan, I'd take that in a heartbeat, but modern day Morgan is distinctly underwhelming.

Ewers looked good against Montpellier. The gripe I've always had with him was that his carrying technique was appalling and he relied on his power to get him out of trouble that he never should have been in. Looked like someone had being doing some work with him on that, which is promising. Mind, he's 27, so he's dead to Eddie already, and if we're going to call up a Chief, Armand is front of the queue.

While Simmonds is small, he does make awfully good use of the weight that he has - he targets weak shoulders, moves his feet, and continues driving through contact rather than stopping just before (Mike Williams). I'd actually rate him as more Billy-like than Hughes is in his ability to make ground with bad ball and to make busts against set defences, so I'm entirely unbothered by his weight. Robshaw, Underhill, and Simmonds will suit me fine.

Puja

Puja, do you expect any scrummaging or lineout effect from your backrow?

[Mellsblue]

Samoa are samoa. My point really is that exeter play a very specific way and simmonds fits into that well because he is surrounded by other carriers and they build pressure and tire out the opposition.

I just don't see how he fits in as the sole ball carrier vs top quality test defences in the six nations. I think the same with mercer currently as well to be honest. They are both top quality rugby players but don't fit the role.

Samoa are Samoa....can’t argue with that.
That Exeter play one way and England play another I’d argue it’s the same for all players. Unless you want Jones to find the club that plays closest to his Eng and pick as many players as possible from there I don’t see how that’s relevant. Wasps play nothing like England. Do we rule out Launch, Hughes and Daly.
Simmonds won’t be the only ball carrier. M Vunipola, Launch, Lawes, Itoje, George and Sinckler are all good carriers.
I understand the need to play to a player’s strengths but that is impossible to achieve for an entire team and I don’t see the argument that you must surround a player with clones of his clubmates.
Essentially your saying that you must surround Simmonds with players the same as those at Exeter whilst also admitting that Eng and therefore Simmonds will have to play differently. I don’t see the correlation between the two.

[padprop]

For me, Morgan is a guy who has always underwhelmed in the AP but always been outstanding at international level, alot like Nonu in super rugby for a couple seasons.

I'd give him a go with Simmonds on the bench,

Robshaw
Armand
Morgan

Simmonds

[Digby]

For me, Morgan is a guy who has always underwhelmed in the AP but always been outstanding at international level, alot like Nonu in super rugby for a couple seasons.

I'd give him a go with Simmonds on the bench,

Robshaw
Armand
Morgan

Simmonds

No 7 then, standard for Eddie in many ways. I would agree Morgan has lifted himself at test level, but hasn't always been outstanding even allowing for it's not his fault he was too often the only carrier

[Scrumhead]

I’m joining the party late on this one. Thankfully a lot of the points I might have raised have been covered (in depth)!

For ease/clarity, I am going to start by saying that I think Robshaw and Simmonds are most likely to start at 6 and 8 and depending upon how long he is suspended for, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Haskell at 7.

I like Puja’s back row and I’d be tempted to go with Underhill at 7 too. However, He and Simmonds have 6 or 7 caps between them which would make Robshaw’s inclusion at 6 all the more essential IMO.

The only other variation I can realistically see is Robshaw at 7 with Lawes or Itoje at 6 and Simmonds at 8.

All of the calls for Kvesic, Armand and Ewers seem to be forgetting they have the sum total of 6 caps between them and little or no indication that Eddie regards them as worthy of making his squad. Morgan obviously has more caps, but has had no more interest from Eddie. Also, with the exception of Armand, the other three have probably started about 10 games between them this season. I just don’t see them featuring. Whether I like it or not, Gary Graham has a better chance right now.

I have a lot of time for Mark Wilson and Ben Curry and I’d have probably had both in my squad. Both are far more deserving of a call-up than Kvesic or Ewers on current/recent form but I think it’s unlikely either will make the cut for the 6 Nations considering they can’t make a training squad.

Given his recent time in the camp, Mercer would be my pick for the reserve 8. Obviously the kid has limited experience, but he looks perfectly good at AP/ECC level and in the absence of other options, the risk/reward of blooding him now is worth taking IMO.

[Timbo]

I reckon Eddie will go with;

6. Lawes
7. Robshaw
8. Simmonds
20. Haskell/Underhill

Hopefully Hughes will be back during the tournament.

[fivepointer]

Yep, realistically a few of the players mentioned arent going to get a call. Whether they should or not is really another matter.
Based on what we know, and who Eddie has selected we can safely assume Robshaw, Simmonds and Underhill will be definites in the squad. Haskell's experience will probably earn him a spot (if he's available) and Graham seems set to see some action (if fit). Which leaves space for one more player, who must be able to play 8. Mercer has been around and has some very good club form. Then there's Chisholm, who might be a bit of a bolter but is also playing well.
I've got a feeling we will see a lock at 6 to further increase the options.

[Puja]

Would anyone like to see Ben Morgan come back at No 8 ?

A complete left field selection might be a call for Dave Ewers ?

I think you might be on your own with the Ben Morgan shout. If we could have 2014!Morgan, I'd take that in a heartbeat, but modern day Morgan is distinctly underwhelming.

Ewers looked good against Montpellier. The gripe I've always had with him was that his carrying technique was appalling and he relied on his power to get him out of trouble that he never should have been in. Looked like someone had being doing some work with him on that, which is promising. Mind, he's 27, so he's dead to Eddie already, and if we're going to call up a Chief, Armand is front of the queue.

While Simmonds is small, he does make awfully good use of the weight that he has - he targets weak shoulders, moves his feet, and continues driving through contact rather than stopping just before (Mike Williams). I'd actually rate him as more Billy-like than Hughes is in his ability to make ground with bad ball and to make busts against set defences, so I'm entirely unbothered by his weight. Robshaw, Underhill, and Simmonds will suit me fine.

Puja

Puja, do you expect any scrummaging or lineout effect from your backrow?

I wouldn't expect that back row to make any real difference to our scrummaging - the only real weight difference is at 8 and 8s spend half their time not pushing anyway.

Lineout's a problem, you're right. Picking Armand would sort that, but I'm not sure of the balance in the loose with him and Robshaw, whichever wears the 7 shirt. And Robshaw is undroppable as the only (good) back rower available to us currently with more than 5 caps.

I have a horrible suspicion that we'll see Lawes, Robshaw and Simmonds, regardless of the copious evidence that it just doesn't work.

Puja