RugbyRebels

With all of the competitions our clubs are involved, losing players to test rugby and an increasing number of injuries, what is the optimum make-up of a Premiership squad for it to be successful on all fronts?

To make it simpler, the questions I’d ask are:

What is the optimum squad size?

What is the right balance of current internationals, solid Premiership players/ex-internationals and young players/academy grads?

How are internationals best utilised - i.e. how many games should they play/which games/competitions should they be used for?

Which clubs balance this most successfully?

My thoughts are as follows:

35-40 is probably about right. However, this depends on how viable it is to utilise academy players for A-League/AW Cup games.

My estimate is that the right balance is something like 6-8 test players, a similar number of promising young players and the remaining 20-25 made up of solid pros.

That allows for consistency of selection and enough fat to cope with test call-ups and inevitable injuries.

I suspect the trick is having a solid core of very good players who are either no longer in consideration at test level, aspiring for test recognition or are very close to but just a tiny bit short of international class.

Exeter probably have the best example of this, particularly when Eddie doesn’t fancy selecting the likes of LCD, Armand etc.

The value of current internationals is hard to quantify. Clearly they should be among a club’s best players but I can understand how their earnings/test absences might not be construed as value for money. That said, there is a case to argue that English clubs are potentially playing their internationals too much. Looking at some recent research, our test players are playing almost double the amount of Irish, Welsh and Scottish equivalents.

It stands to reason that they are saved for the biggest domestic/European games but in a highly competitive league with relegation, a good chunk of our clubs can’t be that selective.

There is also the issue of short-changing your paying season ticket holders who, quite reasonably, want to see their club’s star players.

I’d also suggest that star players help to sell tickets and attract other players to join clubs which adds an additional, intangible value that compensated for their absences.

That’s my ramble over. Thoughts anyone?

As much as we grumble, the statistical makeup of the Quins squad is quite good.

It's up to 51 players deep, including 8 current academy players.

Of those:

4 hookers
9 props
5 locks + 1 senior academy lock
6 backrows + 2 senior academy BRs
5 SHs (yeah, injuries..., 2 of them are injury dispensation) + 1 senior academy SH
3 FHs + 1 senior academy FH
5 centres + 1 senior academy
6 back 3 + 1 senior academy

Of those, 8-12 are "current" internationals. 4 are former internationals. 19 are below international standard and never likely to get there.

18 are former academy players. 15 are not English.

Spend all you cash on a fullback, obvs. Preferably Le Roux and, if Willie is not available, Charlie P.

Mellsblue wrote:Spend all you cash on a fullback, obvs. Preferably Le Roux and, if Willie is not available, Charlie P.

indeedy

What does being successful on all fronts mean? The squad I'd want to win the AP and Heineken Cup would differ more than a little from a squad I'd think would be good value for money to finish top 4/6 and push for a quarter final spot in Europe and maybe luck into a semi

Stom wrote:As much as we grumble, the statistical makeup of the Quins squad is quite good.

It's up to 51 players deep, including 8 current academy players.

Of those:

4 hookers
9 props
5 locks + 1 senior academy lock
6 backrows + 2 senior academy BRs
5 SHs (yeah, injuries..., 2 of them are injury dispensation) + 1 senior academy SH
3 FHs + 1 senior academy FH
5 centres + 1 senior academy
6 back 3 + 1 senior academy

Of those, 8-12 are "current" internationals. 4 are former internationals. 19 are below international standard and never likely to get there.

18 are former academy players. 15 are not English.

Agreed. 19 below international standard is about right for all the reasons I outlined. However, a lot of that 19 are a long way off international standard.

We need more players like Marchant and Walker who are potentially good enough to get to that level rather than the likes of Gray and Stanley (I know he is capped by Samoa).

As much as our signings are not generally spectacular, I think Kingston is actually doing a good job of replacing expensive, troublesome or ageing players with younger players with higher potential. Generally, all of his signings have been upgrades.

The issue with our internationals is that most of ours make the match day 23 so we don’t get them back.

Digby wrote:What does being successful on all fronts mean? The squad I'd want to win the AP and Heineken Cup would differ more than a little from a squad I'd think would be good value for money to finish top 4/6 and push for a quarter final spot in Europe and maybe luck into a semi

Fair question. I guess I’m really thinking of the latter as that could apply to most clubs in the Premiership.

Scrumhead wrote:

Digby wrote:What does being successful on all fronts mean? The squad I'd want to win the AP and Heineken Cup would differ more than a little from a squad I'd think would be good value for money to finish top 4/6 and push for a quarter final spot in Europe and maybe luck into a semi

Fair question. I guess I’m really thinking of the latter as that could apply to most clubs in the Premiership.

Then I'd be aiming more for a solid XV and solid squad of players that fit a certain style, and I'd worry less about having truly class players like Itoje and the Vunipola boys who are able to deliver big games in finals. They key actually for me would be to develop a squad that suit the patterns of play wanted, rather than shooting off in 15 different directions at once, which is what Glaws have spent a decade doing.

2 full XV + an orthodox bench. You then need further options (and this may be trustworthy academy players) to act further backup for your predicted internationals and sicknote; the academy should offer further replacements for each unit (if your academy hasn't got one, then a cheap senior). I'd also look to have a spare backrowers kicking around, given how attritional those positions are; but this could be provided by one of the locks. I'd be tempted to have an extra SH and HK on the books too, as they're tough positions to slot in and get used to things, but I don't think you'd get anyone of sufficient quality who's happy to only make the bench after 2 injuries.
If you have good enough utility players you could afford to drop a little depth for 4-8; 10-12-15 and/or 13-14.

So, assuming you have no internationals and no sicknotes (add a kid or Championship-level for each of those)
3x LHP + 1 kid
3x HK + 1 kid
3x THP + 1 kid
5x Locks + 1 kid
8x Backrow + 1 kid
(22+5)
3x SH + 1 kid
3x FH + 1 kid
4x CE +1 kid
7 B3 + 1 kid
(17+4)

In terms of quality, obviously you want as many players as possible whom are better than their pay-grade, and ideally every player should be in international contention, but rarely selected.
Realistically, 3-4 star players who can win a match on their own, 20 odd who are genuinely decent at Prem level, and the rest who are good enough to take part in rotation, rather than only useful in an emergency.
Oh, and there's no salary cap for coaches, so get the very best available (assuming you can actually afford them).

Probably around 40 players in total i'd say.
You will need at least 3 players for each front row position, SH and FH as a bare minimum. 5 locks, 7/8 back rowers, 4/5 centres and 6/7 back 3.
Core squad to be supplemented by senior academy players, typically 19-22 year olds.
ideally you will have a nucleus of high quality international class players, a solid block of Prem standard players, along with a good sprinkling of youngsters.
Exeter have 59 players listed, but i know some are academy players and a few are out on loan.
Sale list 33 but this is just their core 1st team squad.