RugbyRebels

If you accept that the England team has been moving in the wrong direction for a while and that wholesale changes are required, pick your XXIII for the France match:

Vunipola
George
Williams
Launch
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes

Spencer
Ford
Daly
Farrell*
Joseph
May
Watson


LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Lawes
Simmonds
Care**
Lozowski
Teo

*Ideally I’d drop Farrell but he’s too interwoven in the team - both on the field and off - and there is no clear alternative.
**I think Robson is a better scrumhalf than Spencer, but I don’t see Care as a starter and I see Spencer as a better/steadier/more consistent bet for the first 50 mins than Robson. If it were a year ago I’d be more inclined to blood Robson and if Maunder has pushed on I’d probably have gone for him.

The starting pack:
Marler
LCD
Williams
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes

Given who is actually in/around the squad and who we're playing I'd go for:

1. Marler
2. George
3. Williams
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Robshaw
7. Haskell
8. Hughes
9. Wigglesworth*
10. Ford
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Te'o
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. M. Vunipola
18. Sinckler
19. Itoje
20. Underhill
21. Care
22. Joseph
23. Brown

* In normal circumstances, I wouldn't go for Wigglesworth in a month of Sunday's but if the choice is him or Care, he is better off starting with Care off the bench.

It's harsh on Mako, but I feel that Marler is needed against France (and possibly Ireland depending on Furlong's fitness).

I'm sure people will laugh at me picking Haskell, but I think he would have made a difference yesterday - at least in protecting our ball a bit.

9. Robson - perfect with Hughes
10. Ford- he will love it playing outside Robson. Finally get to see him as a genuine attacking threat ball in hand
11. May
12. Lozowski- time to play a genuine ball player who not only relieves Ford from Farrell’s shadow but is also an instinctive player
13. JJ
14. Nowell
15. Watson

Marler
George
Williams
Launchbury
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes

Care
Ford
May
Farrell
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

LCD
Mako
Sinckler
Lawes
Haskell
Robson
Teo
Earle

Mako
George
Williams
Launch
Lawes
Robshaw
Curry
Hughes
Care
Ford
May
Te'o
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

LCD
Marler
Sinckler
Itoje
Underhill
Robson
Farrell
Brown

Marler
George
Williams
Lawes
Launch
Robshaw
Underhill (Willis if fit)
Hughes

Robson
Ford
Daly if fit
Farrell
Joseph
Watson
Miller - About time he was given a go

Dunn - LCDs darts just not reliable enough
Mako
Sinckler
Itoje
Armand (Simmonds if fit)
Care
Te'o
May

For all Mako's plus points, he just not a destructive scrummager and will only get parity at best

I know its almost become cliche but I still dont think Nowell is quick enough, when he came off the bench he was just incapable of even getting close to getting on the outside

I actually rate Brown more than most, but Miller has been an unbelievable player for years and should get a chance.

Vunipola
George
Sinckler
Launchbury
Itoje
Robshaw
Kvesic
Hughes
Robson
Ford
May
Te'o
JJ
Watson
Daly

LCD
Marler
Williams
Lawes
Mercer
Care
Farrell
Nowell

Marler
George
Williams
Launchbury
Lawes
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes
Care
Ford
Nowell
Farrell
Te'o
May
Watson

Mako
LCD
Sinckler
Itoje
Mercer
Robson
JJ
lozowski

We're not great at the breakdown, we don't have a good handling pack, and we struggle for carriers. And still there's more than decent support for both dropping Mako, and not replacing the skills he brings in carrying and handling

Vunipola
LCD
Williams
Launchbury
Itoje
Robshaw
Underhill
Hughes
Care
Ford
Daly (if fit, or May)
Farrell
Joseph
Nowell
Watson

Marler
George
Sinkler
Lawes
Mercer
Robson
Lozowski
May (or Cokanasiga if Daly not fit)

10. Max Malins

Clean slate? So "importance to team" "undroppable" etc are irrelevant?

1. Marler
2. George
3. Williams
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury (c)
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Te'o
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. MVunipola
18. Thomas (when's Sinckler back?)
19. Itoje
20. Mercer
21. Vellacott (probably too late for Robson, so give it the next generation, with Maunder unavailable. Ideally I'd swap with Care, but I want the new kid to get some experience before starting)
22. Farrell
23. Brown (not the best bench option but the bench needs a FB, Watson to wing for that change, or Faz on with JJ to wing if Watson already off)



Our problems are 2, 3 and 6. I've no real problem with Dylan benching, but would rather just move on from him. Cole is an absolute passenger. Our locks are locks, not flankers, Itoje for me has the least form.
In the backline, Faz has remembered what to do at IC, but I'd still rather he played there for his club; both Ford and JJ work better with a running threat between them, ideally a big in. Faz has improved there, but he's not there yet.

Which Tyler wrote:Clean slate? So "importance to team" "undroppable" etc are irrelevant?

1. Marler
2. George
3. Williams
4. Lawes
5. Launchbury (c)
6. Robshaw
7. Underhill
8. Hughes

9. Care
10. Ford
11. May
12. Te'o
13. Joseph
14. Nowell
15. Watson

16. Cowan-Dickie
17. MVunipola
18. Thomas (when's Sinckler back?)
19. Itoje
20. Mercer
21. Vellacott (probably too late for Robson, so give it the next generation, with Maunder unavailable. Ideally I'd swap with Care, but I want the new kid to get some experience before starting)
22. Farrell
23. Brown (not the best bench option but the bench needs a FB, Watson to wing for that change, or Faz on with JJ to wing if Watson already off)



Our problems are 2, 3 and 6. I've no real problem with Dylan benching, but would rather just move on from him. Cole is an absolute passenger. Our locks are locks, not flankers, Itoje for me has the least form.
In the backline, Faz has remembered what to do at IC, but I'd still rather he played there for his club; both Ford and JJ work better with a running threat between them, ideally a big in. Faz has improved there, but he's not there yet.

Pretty much clean slate but taking into account we are where we are, ie not too far from the RWC.
Sinckler has had 2/3 games back.

Mellsblue wrote: Sinckler has had 2/3 games back.

Over played Hughes might say

Mellsblue wrote: Pretty much clean slate but taking into account we are where we are, ie not too far from the RWC.
Sinckler has had 2/3 games back.

Cheers, then my team above stands.
How's he doing? Ready to take the bench against France?

Which Tyler wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Pretty much clean slate but taking into account we are where we are, ie not too far from the RWC.
Sinckler has had 2/3 games back.

Cheers, then my team above stands.
How's he doing? Ready to take the bench against France?

Haven’t seen him play. Can’t possibly be worse than Cole, though.

Mellsblue wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Pretty much clean slate but taking into account we are where we are, ie not too far from the RWC.
Sinckler has had 2/3 games back.

Cheers, then my team above stands.
How's he doing? Ready to take the bench against France?

Haven’t seen him play. Can’t possibly be worse than Cole, though.

Agreed, but is he better than Thomas?

Which Tyler wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Which Tyler wrote: Cheers, then my team above stands.
How's he doing? Ready to take the bench against France?

Haven’t seen him play. Can’t possibly be worse than Cole, though.

Agreed, but is he better than Thomas?

Big fan of Thomas. If he can stay fit and Sinckler can get his head out of his arse, I’d have them both ahead of Williams.

Thomas above Sinckler for me. Thomas is simply a better player when fit now he can scrummage, that was the only thing he lacked up until a couple of years ago, not that he's played much since gulp. He carries as well as Sinckler but isn't a liability. Everything else is a bonus. Feel like I'm swimming against the tide on Sinckler. Williams might never be world class but I'd still pick him over Cole at this point. Starting to think Cole has some pics in his drawer that Eddie doen't want daylight on.

Beasties wrote:Thomas above Sinckler for me. Thomas is simply a better player when fit now he can scrummage, that was the only thing he lacked up until a couple of years ago, not that he's played much since gulp. He carries as well as Sinckler but isn't a liability. Everything else is a bonus. Feel like I'm swimming against the tide on Sinckler. Williams might never be world class but I'd still pick him over Cole at this point. Starting to think Cole has some pics in his drawer that Eddie doen't want daylight on.

Personally I'd agree - but I'm always wary of whether I think that due to club bias, especially when I seem to be in a minority. For me there's not much to chose between the two of them as players; but Thomas is more experienced and less likely to be an idiot; whilst Sinkler has more room for improvement given his relative inexperience.
Either way, for now, both are too recently back from injury for me to want to risk either of them starting; so Williams gets the start, with one of those 2 on the bench. The important thing though, is that Cole needs to find his mojo (probably needing a good 8 weeks on the beach to do so; and to then play about 2/3 of each club match, rather than 9/10), and to be dropped entirely until he's done so.

I’ve seen Thomas several times this season and he doesn’t yet look close to making an international return imo.

Which Tyler wrote:

Beasties wrote:Thomas above Sinckler for me. Thomas is simply a better player when fit now he can scrummage, that was the only thing he lacked up until a couple of years ago, not that he's played much since gulp. He carries as well as Sinckler but isn't a liability. Everything else is a bonus. Feel like I'm swimming against the tide on Sinckler. Williams might never be world class but I'd still pick him over Cole at this point. Starting to think Cole has some pics in his drawer that Eddie doen't want daylight on.

Personally I'd agree - but I'm always wary of whether I think that due to club bias, especially when I seem to be in a minority. For me there's not much to chose between the two of them as players; but Thomas is more experienced and less likely to be an idiot; whilst Sinkler has more room for improvement given his relative inexperience.
Either way, for now, both are too recently back from injury for me to want to risk either of them starting; so Williams gets the start, with one of those 2 on the bench. The important thing though, is that Cole needs to find his mojo (probably needing a good 8 weeks on the beach to do so; and to then play about 2/3 of each club match, rather than 9/10), and to be dropped entirely until he's done so.

You could just as easily say that it’s club bias for me too, but I think Sinckler is the more talented rugby player. At his best, he’ll slot in as an auxiliary playmaker a la Mako Vunipola, as well as being a strong, quick carrier.

I think Thomas is a good player too, but Sinckler at his best is a level above IMO. That said, Thomas is probably more consistent when fit.

Timbo wrote:I’ve seen Thomas several times this season and he doesn’t yet look close to making an international return imo.

It's a fair cop, I've hardly seen Bath play since the NY so haven't any recent experience of watching Thomas actually play. Doesn't stop me using my special memory glasses though

Scrumhead wrote:

Which Tyler wrote:

Beasties wrote:Thomas above Sinckler for me. Thomas is simply a better player when fit now he can scrummage, that was the only thing he lacked up until a couple of years ago, not that he's played much since gulp. He carries as well as Sinckler but isn't a liability. Everything else is a bonus. Feel like I'm swimming against the tide on Sinckler. Williams might never be world class but I'd still pick him over Cole at this point. Starting to think Cole has some pics in his drawer that Eddie doen't want daylight on.

Personally I'd agree - but I'm always wary of whether I think that due to club bias, especially when I seem to be in a minority. For me there's not much to chose between the two of them as players; but Thomas is more experienced and less likely to be an idiot; whilst Sinkler has more room for improvement given his relative inexperience.
Either way, for now, both are too recently back from injury for me to want to risk either of them starting; so Williams gets the start, with one of those 2 on the bench. The important thing though, is that Cole needs to find his mojo (probably needing a good 8 weeks on the beach to do so; and to then play about 2/3 of each club match, rather than 9/10), and to be dropped entirely until he's done so.

You could just as easily say that it’s club bias for me too, but I think Sinckler is the more talented rugby player. At his best, he’ll slot in as an auxiliary playmaker a la Mako Vunipola, as well as being a strong, quick carrier.

I think Thomas is a good player too, but Sinckler at his best is a level above IMO. That said, Thomas is probably more consistent when fit.

plus Sinckler's discipline is pi55 poor. He'll fit right into Eddie's pack.