RugbyRebels

So what will England do?

What I want them to do and what they will do are two very different things...

I think Eddie will double down on his twin concepts of experience and the Sarries way. I think we're going to see big, unskilled forwards, Farrell at 10 and no invention. And an overreliance on Billy.

What I'd want to see is picking the best players we have and adding players who do the dirty work.

I'd love to see a pack built around playing quick, round the corner rugby to create space for a rapid back 3.

Which would need LCD, Launch, a Curry...

I think these are the two kind of teams...

Mine:
Mako
LCD
Sinckler
Launch
Itoje
Robshaw
Curry B
Billy
???
Ford
Daly
Slade
Joseph
May
Watson

Taylor, Genge, Williams, Isiekwe, Armand, Care, Tuilagi, Nowell

Eddie's :
Mako
Hartley
Cole
Itoje
Kruis
Robshaw
Haskell
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly
Te'o
Joseph
Watson
Brown

George, Marler, Sinckler, Launch, Hughes, Care, Ford, Tuilagi

I’m suprised George has suddenly become classed as a work horse. His loose play is up there with any other EQP player and better than the vast majority.

Yeah, I'd have George as my starting poker with LCD off the bench.

There may be a strong argument for giving George the summer off, however

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

I say fu*k it. Let’s be bold and stop hoping the old stagers are going to get us to the next World Cup.

Eddie also needs to show some humility and recognise that he needs to bring in an attack coach.

For the SA tour, we need to give most of the Lions players a rest and even if Billy is fit, I’d be tempted to leave him at home. Hughes does an OK impression, but the rest of our 8s are very different types of players that we need to create a game plan for.

I’d go with:

1. Marler / Genge / Hepburn
2. Cowan-Dickie / Taylor / Dunn
3. Sinckler / Williams / Cooper-Woolley
4. Ewels / Isiekwe
5. Launchbury / Skinner
6. Armand / Shields
7. Simmonds / B. Curry
8. Mercer / Chisholm
9. Care / Robson
10. Ford / Smith
11. Daly / May
12. Tuilagi / Lozowski
13. Slade
14. Watson / Nowell
15. Woodward

Post SA, I’d re-introduce Billy, Youngs and the Lions. I’m on the fence re. Hughes.

We really don't need a complete turn around in playing staff or play philosophy. Arrive at the RWC physically and mentally fit, with a largely first choice squad, and we should expect to reach a semi-final.
We now know that we can't push the players as hard as they have been between lions, Prem and beatings at Pennyhill, hopefully this means we can judge it right.
I'm game-plan, the principal area we've been found wanting is at the breakdown, where basically the Prem ref.s have a different interpretation to everyone else, and the English teams (club and national) are trying to play to different interpretations. There's not excuse to not learn this lesson, and adapt to it, especially as everyone else is basically playing how they used to, so it should be easy enough timeworn back.

Select from a squad of
Marler, MVunipola, Genge
George, LCD, Taylor, Hartley
Sinkler, Williams, Cole (I still hope Thomas and Hill can overtake him though - both desperately short of form)
Lawes, Itoje, Ewels
Launchbury, Kruis, Isiekwe
Robshaw, Underhill, Wilson/Armand
Simmonds, Curry, Curry
BVunipola, Hughes, Mercer

Youngs, Care, Robson, Vellacott
Ford, Cipriani, Smith
May, Daly, Solomona
Farrell, Losowski, Te'o
Joseph, Tuilagi, Slade
Nowell, Earle
Brown, Watson, Woodward

And we can compete with anyone.
Learn how to co Pete at the breakdown without falling foul of every ref who isn't English, and therefore is able to meet us; and we're a long way towards fixing things.

Hell, even playing badly against the second best team in the world today, we lost by 9, scoring 0% from the tee.
We are NOT as bad as being made out to be, whilst exhausted, broken, and failing at the basics.

Give the lions (and anyone else who's been too over-playing) the summer off to recharge their batteries.
Sent the rest to SA, to try things out (please god's, including a viable SH).
Compete at the breakdown from game 1, not game 5.
Get Billy fit, and wrap him in cotton wool, same for Manu. Micromanage the 2 of them in terms of health and game time.
Set the pre-RWC training camp to get the players fit and strong, but not knackered and broken.


Has anyone got those stats for Billy last year Vs the entire England pack this year?

Ah yes Jake Cooper-woolley the average 28 year old TH he will help things....



Hughes is out for the tour anyway isn't he?

What next?

Well, more of the same really...mostly anyway.

The team will continue to be built around Farrell and his legendary kicking and all round world class abilities.

I do think Eddie has finally learned his lesson(s) about Lawes in the backrow, but he also needs to be a little bolder on trying out Armand and others. 10 minutes off the bench told us very little.

Midfield needs a little work still, but I'm not expecting any changes.

There really is no point posting what we'd like to see as Eddie will continue with Hartley as captain and Farrell as captain in waiting.

Eddie really needs to get an attack coach in as well!

Eddie needed to keep hold of Vesty.

Start by not giving 10+ dumbass penalties away. Pick best players and specialists. Get someone good to coach the breakdown; get a good backs coach. Ditch Hartley and a few others. There's a list and not even 1/3rd through

What next? Jones to bring back Wood.

Jones had already got wood...

for Farrell.

Depends on the plan.

If the plan was the pummel the players s&c with a long term goal of the rwc, then there shouldn't be much difference for the next 12 months.

I think Eddie wanted to win against Ireland, hence the changes. Some I suspect were conditioning changes (Kruis should be less exhausted than Launch, so he can start, Sinckler too etc), some unfortunately I think show Eddies thoughts on better players (Ford vs Farrell).

If everyone is looking rapid and enthusiastic against SA, I'd guess there's been a change in philosophy, which isn't good news.

Largely agree with what Which wrote.
There are obvious issues but we have the core of a very good squad. Move out some of the dead wood and bring in a few new faces. Invest in a proper 7, a 3rd SH and make a decision about whether Ford-farrell together really is a runner.
Refresh the coaching team. Hatley and Borthwick have hardly enhanced their reputations and its surely time to bring in someone to handle attack.
Make the breakdown a priority. We urgently need to be better here, both in terms of technique and in our resourcing decisions.
Pick a new captain. Would send a signal that we're moving into a new phase and that no one is guaranteed a place.
Hope that Billy gets and stays fit! Oh and that Manu rediscovers his best form.

I hear the conditioning and injury themes, but where do we get the rugby smarts from? When do we stop shipping ludicrous penalties? When do players cop the consequences? I don’t think I’ve seen a more ridiculous effort from a team than England’s donation of Ireland’s third try. I do think we have a core of decent players, but still feel need upgrades in every unit, and that includes decision making; I don’t think Fax telling everyone what to do is a good solution

Ignore injury, they happen. All 3 losses were actually rather close games, despite us playing like dogsh*t. Had Farrell done the one thing he's actually supposed to be world class at, and kicked those points, it would have a very different complexion. For me we're good enough to overcome the stupid penalties, when we're fresh. We'd also probably give away less penalties elsewhere.

It all depends in my mind, on whether the fatigue is self inflicted for later improvement, or just poor managemnt.

fivepointer wrote:Largely agree with what Which wrote.
There are obvious issues but we have the core of a very good squad. Move out some of the dead wood and bring in a few new faces. Invest in a proper 7, a 3rd SH and make a decision about whether Ford-farrell together really is a runner.
Refresh the coaching team. Hatley and Borthwick have hardly enhanced their reputations and its surely time to bring in someone to handle attack.
Make the breakdown a priority. We urgently need to be better here, both in terms of technique and in our resourcing decisions.
Pick a new captain. Would send a signal that we're moving into a new phase and that no one is guaranteed a place.
Hope that Billy gets and stays fit! Oh and that Manu rediscovers his best form.

True, but who is there to replace them?
Here's my two penneth on Owen Farrell. No doubt he's competitive and is a proven goal-kicker, but in my limited memory there've been few games when he's really shone and does what a top class outside half should do. Does he have what it takes to be considered in the same class as Barrett, Sexton, Carter etc, or should Eddie persevere and play him in the centre, thereby limiting the team's attacking potential?

One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.

Raggs wrote:Ignore injury, they happen. All 3 losses were actually rather close games, despite us playing like dogsh*t. Had Farrell done the one thing he's actually supposed to be world class at, and kicked those points, it would have a very different complexion. For me we're good enough to overcome the stupid penalties, when we're fresh. We'd also probably give away less penalties elsewhere.

It all depends in my mind, on whether the fatigue is self inflicted for later improvement, or just poor managemnt.

Agreed on injury, but I'm not happy consigning the stupidity against fatigue, nor accepting the what if scenario of kicking more points- we didn't, and we were outplayed by both Scotland and Ireland by quite a margin....and in the last 6N, we got into the (good) habit of winning games playing like 'dogsh*t' where the warning signs for this 6N were posted. Nailing our issues against fatigue, simply doesnt cut it for me, though a factor; reality is that tired or not, we have some big fault lines; decision making and (rugby) intelligence seem to be a huge issue for me, alongside some positional problems and game strategy. I could go on.

Absolutely Banquo.
The bottom line is the signs were there in the AI and the record books will show we finished 5th

Burt would have been hung drawn and quartered for such a return

francoisfou wrote: One position where England are lacking is scrum half. Is there a Conor Murray somewhere, a Rhys Webb, or even a Greig Laidlaw to step up? I've heard the names Robson and Maunder mentioned but as I hardly see and Premiership rugby, I can't honestly comment.

Sadly, no. Robson is a poor man's Ben Youngs - nice breaks, keeps the defence honest, prone to some awful passes and will occasionally get utterly bullied out of a match. There is a fairly good argument that he's better than the crap Wigglesworth and Care have shown up this 6N, but the counter to that is he'd likely be just as crap given the same stresses. Sideqays movement at best. Ben Spencer is deservedly behind Wigglesworth for Saracens. Jack Maunder has all of the skills and a frankly orgasmic pass, but has struggled with injuries this year and is still very young, so he's not had a minute of Prem rugby behind White, Chudley, and Townsend at Exeter. Ben Vellacott is the other putative option, but he's young and wildly inconsistent, and I'm not convinced about his pass.

Basically the only hope for England is that Maunder recovers at the same time that White, Chudley and Townsend all go down with stubbed toes and he gets a good run to the end of the season.

Puja

But fatigue absolutely DOES affect mental performance, this is certainly well known.
Whether it explains all ofnit is unlikely, but factor fatgiue with pressure, desperation and recent unfamiliarity with what they're trying to do (eg compete at the breakdown), and I do think it explains most of the stupidity.

Of course, we still have fault lines, we still have issues with game-plan and selection; but those have been discussed as nauseum over the last 9 months or so; and don't explain our form dropping off a cliff edge.

I think we have issues, no arguing that, I'm just not advocating wholesale changes for a side that is still looking very competitive, assuming they've been heavily trained for future gains.

Which Tyler wrote:But fatigue absolutely DOES affect mental performance, this is certainly well known.
Whether it explains all ofnit is unlikely, but factor fatgiue with pressure, desperation and recent unfamiliarity with what they're trying to do (eg compete at the breakdown), and I do think it explains most of the stupidity.

Of course, we still have fault lines, we still have issues with game-plan and selection; but those have been discussed as nauseum over the last 9 months or so; and don't explain our form dropping off a cliff edge.

as I said, its 'a' factor in our form- I totally disagree with attributing the sheer stupidity on display with it though. Has our form 'dropped off a cliff edge' or have other sides simply exposed the fault lines....

We were being stupid a year ago, btw-perhaps not quite as stupid as v Ireland I suppose. Its just we were winning.

The question was what next- I'm saying the answer isn't simply, rest. So the other fault lines have to be re-raised.

Raggs wrote:I think we have issues, no arguing that, I'm just not advocating wholesale changes for a side that is still looking very competitive, assuming they've been heavily trained for future gains.

I'm advocating some change, both in personnel and in preparation. And have been doing so, winning or otherwise.

Emotional fatigue a huge factor imo. Not sure I buy that there’s an awful lot wrong physically.

Tell tale sign for me is Saracens, who even when not the best team in Europe have been operating as an credibly well oiled machine for 5/6 + years now. This season, packed full of England and Lions players they’ve looked switched off and going through the motions.