RugbyRebels

Yesterday was truly awful and while I know it wasn’t a test match, we should never be conceding 60+ points at home.

You could argue it was a scratch side, but TBH it wasn’t much weaker on paper than the side we sent to Argentina last summer.

SA will be massively up for it and I am genuinely concerned that we’re staring down the barrel of a 3-0 whitewash and 6 consecutive losses the year prior to a World Cup.

A lot of SH fans said that Eddie would be great to begin with and would then piss everyone off and the wheels would come off. That looks alarmingly prescient right now.

I don’t know if I’d change the selection that drastically so I’m starting to feel like there may be some unreported issues between Eddie and the squad. Itoje indirectly hinted at it with his ‘sleeping’ celebration and comments about being back in a more ‘supportive environment’ (something like that anyway). Is there more to it?

This might sound dramatic but if we do get whitewashed in SA WTF do we do?

Let's not borrow trouble - we were playing a Barbarians game, rather than a real test and doing it minus 6 starters and 4/5 of our bench (plus Lawes, Care, Joseph, Watson who would be in the XXIII and Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, Nowell who would've put pressure on in training). We'll see a very different side in South Africa, both in personnel and attitude.

The big mistake was to treat that game like a test match rather than the end of season jamboree that it is. They were on a hiding to nothing - either they win and are taking it too seriously or they lose and it's a crisis.

If South Africa beat us by 60, then come back to me. Otherwise this is a storm in a teacup.

Puja

Puja wrote:Let's not borrow trouble - we were playing a Barbarians game, rather than a real test and doing it minus 6 starters and 4/5 of our bench (plus Lawes, Care, Joseph, Watson who would be in the XXIII and Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, Nowell who would've put pressure on in training). We'll see a very different side in South Africa, both in personnel and attitude.

The big mistake was to treat that game like a test match rather than the end of season jamboree that it is. They were on a hiding to nothing - either they win and are taking it too seriously or they lose and it's a crisis.

If South Africa beat us by 60, then come back to me. Otherwise this is a storm in a teacup.

Puja

I agree with the sentiment, but there are a few key takeaways.

1) If we want Robshaw to be our starting 6 (or even 7) at the WC, he needs a rest. He is mentally and physically shot.
2) Ditto Mike Brown.
3) Joe Marler needs both a rest and a rocket. Where the hell has his play gone, he looks a shadow of his former self.
4) Ford looked great, tbh. I really do feel like he needs a run of games with an actual 12 outside him. Plus 100% kicking, no?
5) Daly could be worth persevering with at 15, looked lively there.
6) Curry should be involved in the tests.

I agree with all of the above and there were other positive takeaways from yesterday. For example I thought Singleton had a very solid game and Wilson made a definite impact when he came on.

All that said, I’m genuinely concerned that there’s a bigger issue here.

Regardless of how we approached the game or who we had missing, an England side simply should not be shipping 60+ against anyone at home. Even if we treat it in isolation, it is inexcusable. With the added context that if came off the back of three abject performances at the end of the 6 Nations, I’m alarmed.

1) Yep.
2) We won't win the world cup with Brown at 15. We won't win the Rosslyn Park u12 touch rugby funday with him at 11.
3) Yep. I'm wondering if there is a Quins malaise.
4) Bloody good player but dropping Farrell ain't going to happen. Sadly. Ford's kicking stats are better than Farrell's this season.....
5) Just get him in the team! He is verging on world class. Cue Banquo
6) He was top draw, and he deserves a run in the shirt, but we were still turned over too often.

Puja wrote:Let's not borrow trouble - we were playing a Barbarians game, rather than a real test and doing it minus 6 starters and 4/5 of our bench (plus Lawes, Care, Joseph, Watson who would be in the XXIII and Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, Nowell who would've put pressure on in training). We'll see a very different side in South Africa, both in personnel and attitude.

The big mistake was to treat that game like a test match rather than the end of season jamboree that it is. They were on a hiding to nothing - either they win and are taking it too seriously or they lose and it's a crisis.

If South Africa beat us by 60, then come back to me. Otherwise this is a storm in a teacup.

Puja

Indeed. Massively scratch side with a slow fullback on the wing and our most reliable player having an absolute mare. Couple that with everything sticking for the baabaas and the score shouldn't be taken in isolation.
I think we need to win at least one as long as the other two are close, whilst solving the back row issues and the need for a new fullback. If we play SA with Brown at 15 and Robshaw at 7 then we can win 0 v 100 in all three matches and I wouldn't be happy. To be honest, I was hoping we'd get some fresh blood in to the 7 and 15 shirt two years ago in OZ but this is last chance saloon.

Mellsblue wrote:1) Yep.
2) We won't win the world cup with Brown at 15. We won't win the Rosslyn Park u12 touch rugby funday with him at 11.
3) Yep. I'm wondering if there is a Quins malaise.
4) Bloody good player but dropping Farrell ain't going to happen. Sadly. Ford's kicking stats are better than Farrell's this season.....
5) Just get him in the team! He is verging on world class. Cue Banquo
6) He was top draw, and he deserves a run in the shirt, but we were still turned over too often.

I think Daly is a world class 11, as it happens.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:Let's not borrow trouble - we were playing a Barbarians game, rather than a real test and doing it minus 6 starters and 4/5 of our bench (plus Lawes, Care, Joseph, Watson who would be in the XXIII and Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, Nowell who would've put pressure on in training). We'll see a very different side in South Africa, both in personnel and attitude.

The big mistake was to treat that game like a test match rather than the end of season jamboree that it is. They were on a hiding to nothing - either they win and are taking it too seriously or they lose and it's a crisis.

If South Africa beat us by 60, then come back to me. Otherwise this is a storm in a teacup.

Puja

Indeed. Massively scratch side with a slow fullback on the wing and our most reliable player having an absolute mare. Couple that with everything sticking for the baabaas and the score shouldn't be taken in isolation.
I think we need to win at least one as long as the other two are close, whilst solving the back row issues and the need for a new fullback. If we play SA with Brown at 15 and Robshaw at 7 then we can win 0 v 100 in all three matches and I wouldn't be happy. To be honest, I was hoping we'd get some fresh blood in to the 7 and 15 shirt two years ago in OZ but this is last chance saloon.

...hmm..like the Baa Baas weren't a scratch side, and with a lot of players whose best days are behind them. Horrendous performance, no excuses.

Mellsblue wrote:1) Yep.
2) We won't win the world cup with Brown at 15. We won't win the Rosslyn Park u12 touch rugby funday with him at 11.
3) Yep. I'm wondering if there is a Quins malaise.
4) Bloody good player but dropping Farrell ain't going to happen. Sadly. Ford's kicking stats are better than Farrell's this season.....
5) Just get him in the team! He is verging on world class. Cue Banquo
6) He was top draw, and he deserves a run in the shirt, but we were still turned over too often.

Only wondering? I thought everyone was in agreement on that!

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:Let's not borrow trouble - we were playing a Barbarians game, rather than a real test and doing it minus 6 starters and 4/5 of our bench (plus Lawes, Care, Joseph, Watson who would be in the XXIII and Hartley, Kruis, Underhill, Nowell who would've put pressure on in training). We'll see a very different side in South Africa, both in personnel and attitude.

The big mistake was to treat that game like a test match rather than the end of season jamboree that it is. They were on a hiding to nothing - either they win and are taking it too seriously or they lose and it's a crisis.

If South Africa beat us by 60, then come back to me. Otherwise this is a storm in a teacup.

Puja

Indeed. Massively scratch side with a slow fullback on the wing and our most reliable player having an absolute mare. Couple that with everything sticking for the baabaas and the score shouldn't be taken in isolation.
I think we need to win at least one as long as the other two are close, whilst solving the back row issues and the need for a new fullback. If we play SA with Brown at 15 and Robshaw at 7 then we can win 0 v 100 in all three matches and I wouldn't be happy. To be honest, I was hoping we'd get some fresh blood in to the 7 and 15 shirt two years ago in OZ but this is last chance saloon.

...hmm..like the Baa Baas weren't a scratch side, and with a lot of players whose best days are behind them. Horrendous performance, no excuses.

Singleton
McGuigan
Schonert
Stooke
Curry
Mercer
Trinder
Brown

All on debut and/or far inferior to their opposite number. Both scratch sides with more quality in the black and white shirts. If I had to take charge of either of the teams for a one off match, I’d have taken the baabaas without a doubt. If I were to make a composite side, again for a one off match, I’d only have Launchbury from England in the pack and I’d only have Daly and May in the backs (I have Ford and Russell as a score draw).

Stom wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:1) Yep.
2) We won't win the world cup with Brown at 15. We won't win the Rosslyn Park u12 touch rugby funday with him at 11.
3) Yep. I'm wondering if there is a Quins malaise.
4) Bloody good player but dropping Farrell ain't going to happen. Sadly. Ford's kicking stats are better than Farrell's this season.....
5) Just get him in the team! He is verging on world class. Cue Banquo
6) He was top draw, and he deserves a run in the shirt, but we were still turned over too often.

Only wondering? I thought everyone was in agreement on that!

At test level, yeh. The club is obviously in a bad place but it seems to have affected the Quins player in a Eng shirt, too.

I too was genuinely alarmed by that "effort" yesterday. I dont really think we can have many excuses for losing like that. Conceding 9 tries and over 60 pts at home is unacceptable, particularly as the side that went out was by no means the worst we could have fielded. Yes, there were some fill ins but of the 23, 15 are due to tour and a number are likely to start the 1st test in SA. That the Baabaas played with a greater cohesion, accuracy and energy than we did is really quite damning.
It may be too soon to talk of crisis but, taken with a disappointing 6N's, there are genuine grounds for feeling just a touch uneasy.
With the first 2 tests are at altitude and SA to be strengthened by players from Europe, i think we're in for a major challenge. Losing all 3 tests is perfectly possible. Lose them badly then Eddie will be under severe pressure.

Exactly ... after watching our last few games, they’ll definitely be smelling blood.

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Indeed. Massively scratch side with a slow fullback on the wing and our most reliable player having an absolute mare. Couple that with everything sticking for the baabaas and the score shouldn't be taken in isolation.
I think we need to win at least one as long as the other two are close, whilst solving the back row issues and the need for a new fullback. If we play SA with Brown at 15 and Robshaw at 7 then we can win 0 v 100 in all three matches and I wouldn't be happy. To be honest, I was hoping we'd get some fresh blood in to the 7 and 15 shirt two years ago in OZ but this is last chance saloon.

...hmm..like the Baa Baas weren't a scratch side, and with a lot of players whose best days are behind them. Horrendous performance, no excuses.

Singleton
McGuigan
Schonert
Stooke
Curry
Mercer
Trinder
Brown

All on debut and/or far inferior to their opposite number. Both scratch sides with more quality in the black and white shirts. If I had to take charge of either of the teams for a one off match, I’d have taken the baabaas without a doubt. If I were to make a composite side, again for a one off match, I’d only have Launchbury from England in the pack and I’d only have Daly and May in the backs (I have Ford and Russell as a score draw).

Ok it was fine then! Come off it, for our aspiring players and coaching team it was a massive kick in the nuts.

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Banquo wrote: ...hmm..like the Baa Baas weren't a scratch side, and with a lot of players whose best days are behind them. Horrendous performance, no excuses.

Singleton
McGuigan
Schonert
Stooke
Curry
Mercer
Trinder
Brown

All on debut and/or far inferior to their opposite number. Both scratch sides with more quality in the black and white shirts. If I had to take charge of either of the teams for a one off match, I’d have taken the baabaas without a doubt. If I were to make a composite side, again for a one off match, I’d only have Launchbury from England in the pack and I’d only have Daly and May in the backs (I have Ford and Russell as a score draw).

Ok it was fine then! Come off it, for our aspiring players and coaching team it was a massive kick in the nuts.

If we’d dropped Robshaw then they wouldn’t have got 28 easy points and we’d have won. Simple problems require simple solutions

I do jest, ish.

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote: Singleton
McGuigan
Schonert
Stooke
Curry
Mercer
Trinder
Brown

All on debut and/or far inferior to their opposite number. Both scratch sides with more quality in the black and white shirts. If I had to take charge of either of the teams for a one off match, I’d have taken the baabaas without a doubt. If I were to make a composite side, again for a one off match, I’d only have Launchbury from England in the pack and I’d only have Daly and May in the backs (I have Ford and Russell as a score draw).

Ok it was fine then! Come off it, for our aspiring players and coaching team it was a massive kick in the nuts.

If we’d dropped Robshaw then they wouldn’t have got 28 easy points and we’d have won. Simple problems require simple solutions

I do jest, ish.

Has anybody said it was fine? More, it's not a look at the scoreline and decide we're all doomed, unless you're twitchy as there are numerous bits of mitigation.

As EP points out, there's not much Jones could about the Robshaw nightmare, other than take him off rather than Mercer, or that you're replacing Mako, George, LCD, Itoje, Billy, Farrell and Joseph with Marler in poor form, Singleton (good as he was), McGuigan, Stooke, Mercer (good as he was), Francis and Trinder (short lived as he was). Some of those are a serious drop off in quality. Granted, sticking Brown on the wing, a decision that immediately backfired with the first try, could've been helped, but other than tell the RFU he doesn't want the fixture is difficult to see how Jones was on a winner.

Let's look at the positives. We scored a bucketful, got some Eng game time in to some quality youngsters, got another good game out of Ford and gave Stooke, Beaumont and McGuigan a once/twice in a lifetime opportunity to play for the England senior team.

I didn't see the game at the weekend but I find it a bit odd that excuses are being advanced for a crap performance as if it was any sort of surprise after the 6N.

Oakboy wrote:I didn't see the game at the weekend but I find it a bit odd that excuses are being advanced for a crap performance as if it was any sort of surprise after the 6N.

Who is presenting excuses? There are obvious mitigating factors - Robshaw had an utter mare, nine first choice players were missing and some experimentation took place.
You might need some excuses for Dan Robson’s passing

Mellsblue wrote: Let's look at the positives. We scored a bucketful, got some Eng game time in to some quality youngsters, got another good game out of Ford and gave Stooke, Beaumont and McGuigan a once/twice in a lifetime opportunity to play for the England senior team.

For Stooke, that was basically like Jim'll Fix It without the sexual abuse. No Itoje, Kruis, Iziekwe, Lawes, Spencer, Attwood, Hill, Parling, or Skinner, and Slater, Green, and Witty ignored for some reason. No way on earth that the stars will align again even for him to get an England A appearance, let alone a nominal first XV game at Twickenham.

Puja

Mellsblue wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

Banquo wrote: Ok it was fine then! Come off it, for our aspiring players and coaching team it was a massive kick in the nuts.

If we’d dropped Robshaw then they wouldn’t have got 28 easy points and we’d have won. Simple problems require simple solutions

I do jest, ish.

Has anybody said it was fine? More, it's not a look at the scoreline and decide we're all doomed, unless you're twitchy as there are numerous bits of mitigation.

As EP points out, there's not much Jones could about the Robshaw nightmare, other than take him off rather than Mercer, or that you're replacing Mako, George, LCD, Itoje, Billy, Farrell and Joseph with Marler in poor form, Singleton (good as he was), McGuigan, Stooke, Mercer (good as he was), Francis and Trinder (short lived as he was). Some of those are a serious drop off in quality. Granted, sticking Brown on the wing, a decision that immediately backfired with the first try, could've been helped, but other than tell the RFU he doesn't want the fixture is difficult to see how Jones was on a winner.

Let's look at the positives. We scored a bucketful, got some Eng game time in to some quality youngsters, got another good game out of Ford and gave Stooke, Beaumont and McGuigan a once/twice in a lifetime opportunity to play for the England senior team.

Never had you down as a Pollyanna .

Banquo wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

Epaminondas Pules wrote:

If we’d dropped Robshaw then they wouldn’t have got 28 easy points and we’d have won. Simple problems require simple solutions

I do jest, ish.

Has anybody said it was fine? More, it's not a look at the scoreline and decide we're all doomed, unless you're twitchy as there are numerous bits of mitigation.

As EP points out, there's not much Jones could about the Robshaw nightmare, other than take him off rather than Mercer, or that you're replacing Mako, George, LCD, Itoje, Billy, Farrell and Joseph with Marler in poor form, Singleton (good as he was), McGuigan, Stooke, Mercer (good as he was), Francis and Trinder (short lived as he was). Some of those are a serious drop off in quality. Granted, sticking Brown on the wing, a decision that immediately backfired with the first try, could've been helped, but other than tell the RFU he doesn't want the fixture is difficult to see how Jones was on a winner.

Let's look at the positives. We scored a bucketful, got some Eng game time in to some quality youngsters, got another good game out of Ford and gave Stooke, Beaumont and McGuigan a once/twice in a lifetime opportunity to play for the England senior team.

Never had you down as a Pollyanna .

Must be the weather.

I'm just not getting hung up on a team including our 5/6/7th choice hookers, 3rd choice tight head, 11/12th choice locks, debuts at 7 & 8, 5th choice centres and Brown on the wing. If SA goes the way of the last three matches in the 6N I'll be back to my Lancaster era grumpiness.

No-one’s really responded to the actual question from the OP.

What do we do if we lose 3-0? Right now, it doesn’t feel like it’s a particularly big IF. TBH, it feels like a distinct possibility.

From a personal perspective, the nature of the performances is key. If we play well and narrowly lose all three games against an inspired Springbok side, I could probably just about swallow that provided that we’re a step closer to finding some solutions in key positions.

If we play anything like we have done in the last four games, I have no idea what happens?

Realistically, the winning streak and the two 6N (inc. the grand slam) coupled with his contract extension and the limited time left until the World Cup make Eddie practically bullet proof, but serious questions would need to be asked and I really do wonder how he would cope with the media turning on him?

The AIs will be very tough too with SA followed by NZ so it’s not as though there would be A definite opportunity to bounce back with some morale-boosting wins.

Obviously I hope we win the series 3-0 and we’ve just had a nasty 4 game blip but I’m genuinely concerned this could be the start of an ugly build up where Eddie fully freaks out.

It all depends on the performances. As i said above, I'd rather three close loses whilst sorting problem positions than three wins where we plaster over our deficiencies.

The squad of players we’re taking out there shouldn’t be losing 3-0 to this South Africa team/squad. We’ll need to get off to a good start I think.

I don’t think we should be losing 3 v 0 either but I’d rather that than a bastardised backrow and Brown at 15 and we scrape three wins. Luckily, there is no Hartley or Cole so we we definitely get some fresh blood a run out there.