The Tour - pluses

[Galfon]

Not as many as EJ would have hoped for, but there are always wee pieces of gold amongst heaps of unpleasantness and/or misfortunes..
- Finally a win after 6 reversals - good to break the habit.
- A match with single-figure penalty count.
- England won't be going into the World Cup after peaking too soon.
Player wise:
- May earns his spurs and should expect a good run now.
- Curry worth his selection and not fazed by the pressure.
- Cips back on the stage at last.

[WaspInWales]

Not much to shout about at all really...

Curry and a win.

As I said on the match fred, I think the win owed as much to SA being poor on the day. We deserved the win and the discipline was much improved. I'm not sure we would've fared the same had SA played with the same intensity at the previous 2 tests.

Still, the win was very much needed.

The reality of things is that Farrell has a choke hold over the team on the pitch and it's stifling us. His leadership qualities are somewhat dubious too.

Youngs' service from the ruck was soooo slow today. While other teams make the most of attacking ball in order to give the opposition defence as little time as possible to set, we have a scrum half who stares at the ball for anything up to 5 seconds. The forwards and backs around him are literally standing still waiting for a pass, when we should have strike runners coming on to the ball at pace forcing their way over the gain line and really stretching the defence. Why didn't Eddie look at other options? He must be happy with what he sees. The same as the Farrell conundrum. Eddie must think we have the best 9 and 12 possible.

Not sure Cips is likely to become a regular, if he does, it'll only be at Ford's expense which would be a shame and he'll rarely be first receiver or trusted to take kicks. Both Cips and Ford are better 10s than Farrell. I think we need to start looking for better 12s than Farrell, but it won't happen.

I'm actually quite depressed about things at the moment.

[Puja]

I will say that, while Curry's been the best 7 we've played in a while, he's been brushed off an awfully large number of tackles, not least off the back of scrums where Vermeulen's just been able to make hay. He's been part of our defensive problems and he'll need to sort that out pronto.

Hopefully he'll be better for the experience and will launch into next season.

Puja

[padprop]

+:
We have some options at 7 now, you would like to think that Ben curry will be brought in soon enough and they could occupy the shirt for years, probably need a third choice.
Scrum had a bit of bite in the third test, wasn't dominant but probably just edged it even when they brought their bench on
May has grown as a player, probably not first choice when first choice but a good option. I'd have him ahead of Nowell, Roko, Solomona, Yarde
Williams' cameos suggest he's probably overdue a start.

-:
No depth tested at 9, which was the whole point of the tour. Robson will likely never his chance until after the world cup now.
Midfield just didn't look right, Crashing up 87kg Slade was never going to be effective and his defense was poor.
Farrell is still mr invincible. Has missed more tackles than he's made every game and still never mentioned in dispatches.
Dire straits at number 8, Vunipola cannot be relied on to stay fit and Hughes's carrying is really underwhelming.
Multiple players missed a great experience at the under 20 world cup to hold some tackle pads.
Robshaw just isn't the right option. He saved some face today but he is not the way forward.
Had a chance to test how deep our second row depth really goes, but chickened out and didn't bring some good options on tour.

[Parsifal]

Admittedly he said this prior to the 3rd Test, but EJ made some statements about squad depth and answered a question asking which players had emerged who may not have played Test rugby before. Jones mentioned Jamie George developing into a starting hooker from a finisher, Harry Williams, Kyle Sinckler and finally Joe Launchbury for calling the lineout! Not quite answering the question posed but how could he answer it given that guys like Robson didn't play. Mind you, he stated that he wouldn't have changed anything about squad selection or preparation despite what looked like issues acclimatising to altitude.

After our win in the early hours (Qld time) Jones suggested that some players had "fallen by the wayside" on tour. Difficult to second guess Eddie's list of waysiders but Nathan Hughes displaying both the size and menace of Rainbow's feckin Bungle would be on mine.

[morepork]

Admittedly he said this prior to the 3rd Test, but EJ made some statements about squad depth and answered a question asking which players had emerged who may not have played Test rugby before. Jones mentioned Jamie George developing into a starting hooker from a finisher, Harry Williams, Kyle Sinckler and finally Joe Launchbury for calling the lineout! Not quite answering the question posed but how could he answer it given that guys like Robson didn't play. Mind you, he stated that he wouldn't have changed anything about squad selection or preparation despite what looked like issues acclimatising to altitude.

After our win in the early hours (Qld time) Jones suggested that some players had "fallen by the wayside" on tour. Difficult to second guess Eddie's list of waysiders but Nathan Hughes displaying both the size and menace of Rainbow's feckin Bungle would be on mine.

Bungle's efforts at 8 are complemented by Zippy at 12 and Jeffry at 9. Paint the whole world with a rainbow, in glorious black and white.

[Parsifal]

Admittedly he said this prior to the 3rd Test, but EJ made some statements about squad depth and answered a question asking which players had emerged who may not have played Test rugby before. Jones mentioned Jamie George developing into a starting hooker from a finisher, Harry Williams, Kyle Sinckler and finally Joe Launchbury for calling the lineout! Not quite answering the question posed but how could he answer it given that guys like Robson didn't play. Mind you, he stated that he wouldn't have changed anything about squad selection or preparation despite what looked like issues acclimatising to altitude.

After our win in the early hours (Qld time) Jones suggested that some players had "fallen by the wayside" on tour. Difficult to second guess Eddie's list of waysiders but Nathan Hughes displaying both the size and menace of Rainbow's feckin Bungle would be on mine.

Bungle's efforts at 8 are complemented by Zippy at 12 and Jeffry at 9. Paint the whole world with a rainbow, in glorious black and white.

'kin A, bro.

[fivepointer]

I'd say Curry and May were big pluses. Williams, LCD and Wilson did fine from the bench. A few others just about kept their place in the pecking order and some definitely went backwards.
We definitely missed a trick by giving Spencer 5 minutes and Robson none. Very disappointing not to see anything of Genge, Simmonds or Lozowski either. As expected, Earl and Earle were pointless picks.
Those players who didnt get to play can probably rule themselves out of Eddie's RWC plans.

[Scrumhead]

Agreed. Curry and May were the main positives and Wilson looked good again off the bench.

Obviously too early to judge him, but Shields was underwhelming and if his selection caused as much upset (understandably) as has been reported, I’d have to question whether that gamble was worth taking. Wilson looked better IMO.

[Mellsblue]

if his selection caused as much upset (understandably) as has been reported,

Elaborate, please

I also thought Wilson looked the best 6.

[Oakboy]

I'd say Marler's scrummaging yesterday was a significant plus. He stabilised our front row despite the conditions.

[Digby]

So essentially we don't have anything close to a consensus on who should play 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15. But other than that things are moving along nicely.

[Scrumhead]

if his selection caused as much upset (understandably) as has been reported,

Elaborate, please

I also thought Wilson looked the best 6.

I’m not sure how true it is, but a number of sources referenced there being a significant amount of upset over Shields’ selection. Whether that was from the guys in the squad or those that had been overlooked is impossible to say, but I think the overriding view is that Eddie should have waited until he had at least played for Wasps before selecting him.

[Mellsblue]

if his selection caused as much upset (understandably) as has been reported,

Elaborate, please

I also thought Wilson looked the best 6.

I’m not sure how true it is, but a number of sources referenced there being a significant amount of upset over Shields’ selection. Whether that was from the guys in the squad or those that had been overlooked is impossible to say, but I think the overriding view is that Eddie should have waited until he had at least played for Wasps before selecting him.

Ah, ok. Cheers. If true, you’d hope it wasn’t personal but I suspect quite a few of them are six figures poorer because of the oversees player rule that doesn’t seem to apply to Shields.

[Oakboy]

So essentially we don't have anything close to a consensus on who should play 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 or 15. But other than that things are moving along nicely.

Only Jones can try the combinations. He did not have the courage to try changes when we were winning. Now, instead of steady progress year-on-year he has presided over steadily worsening years 2016/17/18.

Also, he must have a different definition of 'positive' from us. Selection-wise what are HIS apparent certainties?

In the forwards, I'd suggest that, if fit, Itoje and Billy are HIS only definite starters. In the backs there would be Youngs, Farrell, Watson and Daly.

Beyond that, there are probables only. Cole? Mako or Marler? Hartley or George? Launchbury, Lawes or Kruis? Robshaw? Brown or May? etc.

[Digby]

There are certainly some probables, but in what roles? Billy V looks nailed on if fit, but fitness concerns to our one nailed on starter in a known shirt raise questions even there.

[Stom]

We're pretty settled in most units but not as starters. So we have 5 nailed on back 3 players in May, Daly, Watson, Brown and Nowell. We have 4 locks. We have 2 lhps.

I don't get that argument and never have.

[Oakboy]

We're pretty settled in most units but not as starters. So we have 5 nailed on back 3 players in May, Daly, Watson, Brown and Nowell. We have 4 locks. We have 2 lhps.

I don't get that argument and never have.

It's not that you or I don't see sufficient realistic contenders, it's that Jones, this close to the RWC, appears not to know his 1st XV.

Further, IF, as appears to be the case, Jones's few certain starters include Youngs and Farrell, I see it as evidence that he's not getting the best out of the squad.

[Mellsblue]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

[Oakboy]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

So, without arguing about your list, you at least admit that he doesn't have either flanker or are you suggesting Lawtoje?

[Mellsblue]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

So, without arguing about your list, you at least admit that he doesn't have either flanker or are you suggesting Lawtoje?

No. Should’ve added Robshaw in to that list. You’d have thought Curry as well but you never know.

[Peat]

After our win in the early hours (Qld time) Jones suggested that some players had "fallen by the wayside" on tour. Difficult to second guess Eddie's list of waysiders but Nathan Hughes displaying both the size and menace of Rainbow's feckin Bungle would be on mine.

I feel like he says this after every window and nothing ever comes of it.

[Digby]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

I'm sticking with the positions aren't a given.

Mako is in a contest with Marler which wasn't the case 6 months ago

Hatley has retired though granted is a better option than Hartley

Cole wasn't close to a fans favourite when playing and is only drawing kinder reviews now he's not playing

Itoje is a given, but at 4 or 5

Billy is a given, and a given in a known shirt if fit

Youngs is performing to a standard that can't have him nailed down

Farrell looks a given, but at 10 or 12?

Daly, May and Watson, probably a given, but who in what shirt? And Eddie does like Nowell and Brown

So the actual number of known starters and known in what shirt is very, very low.

[16th man]

My pluses are pretty much the same as everyone else's, probably as there are so few of them.
Curry looks like he's got the raw material and, you would hope, is only going to grow into the role (cue Eddie deciding he's not physical enough and going Robshaw and Shields in the AIs)
May is a genuine threat. If only we had midfield to take advantage of the space he will create.
It isn't just his absences inflating his worth, when he's fit, BillyV is genuinely a top class 8.
We looked pretty good running first phase strike moves when we weren't cocking up set-pieces / it wasn't leathering it down.
There are several players who have gained a lot of experience and are still young enough and have the time in their careers to benefit from what they've learned.

That last one is however part of a negative too. There should have been a lot more of that type of player on the tour. We've missed what is probably the last chance to give some of our key players a summer off prior to the world cup, whilst not stress testing some of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th choices. Taking the Lions benefited no one, and even Robshaw and Brown, who weren't in NZ, would inarguably have been better off in the long run on a beach somewhere.

[Mellsblue]

Are we sure he doesn’t know most of the team? Nailed on must include:
Mako
Hatley
Cole
Itoje
Billy
Youngs
Farrell
Daly/May/Watson

Add in the following as guaranteed squad players:
Marler
Genge
George
Launch
Lawes
Care
Ford
Joseph
Teo
Nowell
Brown

and it all seems very settled, even if you don’t agree with the selections.

I'm sticking with the positions aren't a given.

Mako is in a contest with Marler which wasn't the case 6 months ago

Hatley has retired though granted is a better option than Hartley

Cole wasn't close to a fans favourite when playing and is only drawing kinder reviews now he's not playing

Itoje is a given, but at 4 or 5

Billy is a given, and a given in a known shirt if fit

Youngs is performing to a standard that can't have him nailed down

Farrell looks a given, but at 10 or 12?

Daly, May and Watson, probably a given, but who in what shirt? And Eddie does like Nowell and Brown

So the actual number of known starters and known in what shirt is very, very low.

For me, if fit, we know 6 of the pack with a question mark of whether Itoje plays 4 or 5. I’ve added in Curry as clear first choice given Jones’s post tour comments. Mako maybe in comp with Marler but I’d say he’s clearly first choice. Sadly, the same at hooker. Cole may not be a fan favourite but he is a Jones favourite, and will be even moreso after this tour. That’s not a bad position to be in, even if some are of questionable quality, especially when lock is really a case off too many quality players to fit in to the squad. If Robshaw comes back to form next season you’d add him in as nailed on, too.
Youngs and Farrell are nailed on, sadly (again). Farrell may move to 10 but given he has been an ever present at 12, bar the Ireland match, it’s no more than speculation that he’ll move. I’d agree that the back three is up for grabs postionally wise but it’s pretty clear it’s between three test Lions and arguably the form winger in the world as to who takes those slots. I’d be happy to put some money on us seeing, injury permitting, 11.Daly 14.May 15.Watson for the AIs. Granted, this should’ve been sorted in 16/17 season.
That’s pretty settled given that some of the units/shirts up for grabs are between quality players rather than because of a paucity of quality/options.

Is it any worse than any other major nation, other than Ireland? New Zealand, for example, aren’t settled at 1, 6, 8 (if we’re saying Billy isn’t nailed on then we’d have to say the same of Read), 12, 13 and the back three, which is 3 from 4. Scott Barrett’s performances will also throw a cat amongst the pigeons at lock.