RugbyRebels

Confusing reports this morning! 'England need to do well against the SH sides.' 'Jones has our support but may need to modify his behaviour.'

Then, 'We are still looking for a defence coach.' And, 'other countries are ahead of us in planning for the RWC.'

The RFU sound as decisive ad our government on Brexit. What is a reasonable target for the AIs? 3 out of 4?

"Jones retains Twickenham’s backing but must produce a strong November series against the Springboks, New Zealand, Japan and Australia to ease speculation over his future.

Steve Brown, the RFU’s chief executive, said. “We plan to win every game we play. We expect success in the autumn. I don’t want to predict failure. I’d rather predict success but that’s not in blind faith. They’re all big matches. We’re planning to come out of the other side successful.” Brown and Jones reviewed England’s tour to South Africa before discussing the autumn schedule.

Jones’s early success when replacing Stuart Lancaster continues to hold weight at Twickenham but it has been made clear that the decline this year is unacceptable. Brown said: “I’ve reflected over the time Eddie has been at his post and his win rate. The win rate is still very high [80%] – it’s significant and it’s hard to argue against it.

“It’s important that we don’t just make a judgment on what’s happened in the very short term. Nevertheless it was a pretty poor run of results.

“We showed great character for the result in Cape Town but the series result was disappointing. So was the Six Nations. Coming fifth in the Six Nations was a pretty difficult situation.

“The last result in South Africa was important but not critical to any decisions we make about the future. The confidence comes from the history to date and talking to Eddie about the plans for the autumn and the World Cup and how to get back to that win rate. I’ve discussed this with Eddie and I’m confident those disappointing results are behind us and can be turned around.”

Thats hardly a ringing endorsement and suggests maybe the RFU arent quite as enthusiastic about Jones as they were. The clear message is we must do better. The AI's were always going to be the critical series results wise. We should be aiming for 3 wins out of 4 and, at the very least, a creditable showing against NZ.

I don't think that's an unreasonable position - if we lost 3 from 4, after the 6N and the summer tour, then I'd very much expect them to be considering his position. He needs to do well or it's three series in a row.

It's not supportive, but it's hardly unfair.

Puja

The issue isn't so much the results but the open questions on how we attack and defend, how selection helps or hinders those plans and over selection itself. Eddie might in some respects have been unfortunate to get off to such a strong set of results without having to address such matters sufficiently.

The next question with the WC so close is does Jones believe in his work to date and look to build on it or does he look almost to start over and repeat his initial sequence of success?

Sounds like a well needed kick up the arse to me, and quite a robust one too.

I think it’s all about results. Even if we look good in all the matches I think he needs 3 out of 4. Those matches are less than 12 months from the World Cup. Saying ‘I can see what we’re trying to do and there’s definitely some improvement’ won’t really cut it at this point. It’s our last chance to play SANZAR and we have to be beating Oz and SA, and at least run NZ close.

I'd happily take a series of coherent performances supported by selection and tactics that suggest they can be repeated, though history suggests it's rather chicken and egg on needing to entwine that with wins

Puja wrote:I don't think that's an unreasonable position - if we lost 3 from 4, after the 6N and the summer tour, then I'd very much expect them to be considering his position. He needs to do well or it's three series in a row.

It's not supportive, but it's hardly unfair.

Puja

100% agree.

The sequence of the games doesn’t really help him either. Beating Japan and Australia isn’t going to help if we’ve already lost to SA and NZ.

As it happens, I’m hopeful/bordering on reasonably confident that we’ll beat SA at home but NZ will spank us on our recent form.

So just find an attack coach, a defence coach, and please stop being such a prick all the time. Oh, and win more games.

13 tests to go. We should be at the point of fine tuning and improving game on game from an established base. I think the RFU must be getting worried. They have only two choices really having left Jones in the job this summer: pray or write off the RWC. I'd have sacked him. I just can't see the point in sacking him after the AIs with only 9 games left.

The RFU do need to acknowledge letting the players head off on the jamboree to raise money for a tier one rival was a turning point.

I thought most, including you, agreed the malaise set in earlier but we just got through on luck and self belief.

I think the good times never really started more than the malaise commenced earlier, but the jamboree sure as poop didn’t help

Unless there is some mass implosion I can't see jones leaving. I think we have had a "new manager bounce" (in cliched football terms) and then a big slump which in part is player exhaustion/mass injuries.

I see us coming back to our probably deserved place which is a top NH side who aren't as good as ireland but can give any of the 6N teams a run for their money if we are on form but also collapse etc.

Changing the head coach at this stage seems pointless to me unless you have some miracle worker that can step in which we don't.

To me england's fortunes seemed to be completely tied to injuries/fitness. When we can utilise out strength in depth in the last 20 mins we do really well.

I think we are better than that. Ireland have a very good side right now, but they’re not the vastly superior side you seem to be suggesting they are and I think we can (and do) do a lot better than ‘giving the 6N sides a run for their money’!

We’ve had a shocking year so far and have a lot of work to do but we’re not a terrible side.

I am concerned that Eddie’s tenure seems to be following the same pattern as his other jobs but I’m prepared to give him the AIs to sort things out. It’s definitely a watershed moment in his tenure.

The RFU will avoid saying anything meaningful about Jones until he either restores trust or loses it fully.

twitchy wrote:Unless there is some mass implosion I can't see jones leaving. I think we have had a "new manager bounce" (in cliched football terms) and then a big slump which in part is player exhaustion/mass injuries.

I see us coming back to our probably deserved place which is a top NH side who aren't as good as ireland but can give any of the 6N teams a run for their money if we are on form but also collapse etc.

Changing the head coach at this stage seems pointless to me unless you have some miracle worker that can step in which we don't.

To me england's fortunes seemed to be completely tied to injuries/fitness. When we can utilise out strength in depth in the last 20 mins we do really well.

How much of the injury/fitness issue is down to Jones's training camp methods, though? Those players that have not been injured don't look any fitter to me.

Scrumhead wrote:I think we are better than that. Ireland have a very good side right now, but they’re not the vastly superior side you seem to be suggesting they are and I think we can (and do) do a lot better than ‘giving the 6N sides a run for their money’!

We’ve had a shocking year so far and have a lot of work to do but we’re not a terrible side.

I am concerned that Eddie’s tenure seems to be following the same pattern as his other jobs but I’m prepared to give him the AIs to sort things out. It’s definitely a watershed moment in his tenure.

Ireland consistently do the basics of rugby better than us. This is why they get the results they get. They are comfortably the best NH side I don't see how that is a controversial opinion? We are capable of a the odd good performance but they would have to have an off day to lose to us.

The rugby they play hard counters us. It has for a while now.

It’s not. I don’t dispute that they are currently the best of the NH sides at all. I don’t think the gap is as big as you are suggesting though.

They have some top players along with a coaching team, game plan and domestic set-up that maximises their potential so fair play to them. Arguably we have none of those elements right now.

I took more exception to your comment that we’re only good enough to give the 6N sides a ‘run for their money’. That clearly isn’t true. It feels like you’re basing that solely on 2018 which isn’t an accurate reflection of England under Eddie Jones’ tenure.

Oakboy wrote:How much of the injury/fitness issue is down to Jones's training camp methods, though? Those players that have not been injured don't look any fitter to me.

No idea.
They're not supposed to look fitter now (or in SA, or in the 6N); he's sacrificing current fitness in order to peak at the RWC - only time will tell if he's got that right or not (I feel not as beastings need to be followed by recovery time to get the benefit).
Assuming they're getting a decent break, rather than straight into pre-season; they should, in theory, look fitter in September - if so, don't be surprised if the cycle repeats during 2018-19.

Ireland are an effective team unit. The team rarely fails to give its best. England's team, since about two thirds of the way through the winning streak, have hardly ever given its best, if at all. That has to be down to coaching/preparation.

If we were to pick a combined 15 there would be at least six Englishmen, I'd guess. Crucially, though, none of the undroppables (the game controllers), Youngs, Ford and Farrell, would be in. It's debatable whether any of them would even make the bench.

Schmidt has been in charge of Ireland for a long time, and while he’s generally achieved a lot he’s also had some mediocre periods which get glossed over a touch. Only a couple of years ago they won just 2 games in the 6N, lost a series in South Africa and since the last WC they’ve lost more games than England.

They had a great season and look well placed going into a World Cup year. But rightly or wrongly they get judged by a different yard stick to England (as do Wales and Scotland).

Oakboy wrote:Ireland are an effective team unit. The team rarely fails to give its best. England's team, since about two thirds of the way through the winning streak, have hardly ever given its best, if at all. That has to be down to coaching/preparation.

If we were to pick a combined 15 there would be at least six Englishmen, I'd guess. Crucially, though, none of the undroppables (the game controllers), Youngs, Ford and Farrell, would be in. It's debatable whether any of them would even make the bench.

You may remember a British and Irish composite team that played a test series last summer, and Farrell was just about the first name on the team sheet. He’d 100% be picked at 12 in that Irish team imo. One of their biggest weaknesses is that they only have one playmaker and they can be very one dimensional outside Sexton.

I know the consensus on this message board is that Farrell is terrible, but the rest of the rugby world doesn’t think so.

Not terrible, more that everyone else doesn't seem to see his very obvious flaws.

Timbo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Ireland are an effective team unit. The team rarely fails to give its best. England's team, since about two thirds of the way through the winning streak, have hardly ever given its best, if at all. That has to be down to coaching/preparation.

If we were to pick a combined 15 there would be at least six Englishmen, I'd guess. Crucially, though, none of the undroppables (the game controllers), Youngs, Ford and Farrell, would be in. It's debatable whether any of them would even make the bench.

You may remember a British and Irish composite team that played a test series last summer, and Farrell was just about the first name on the team sheet. He’d 100% be picked at 12 in that Irish team imo. One of their biggest weaknesses is that they only have one playmaker and they can be very one dimensional outside Sexton.

I know the consensus on this message board is that Farrell is terrible, but the rest of the rugby world doesn’t think so.

Across the worlds top 10 teams how many of them would pick Farrell in front of their current 12?