England have to find their voice

[Epaminondas Pules]

In the second half today our lineout wobbled. NZ challenged really well, but why it was so successful is because they closed the gap considerably to make the challenge a better play. This did this all 4Ns to quite some success and again today.

England, on the other hand, did nothing. Not a word, protest or anything to highlight this to the assistant or ref to get that gap reinforced.

We’ve got to really find our voice when we feel things are being bent against us. We’re almost too polite. Similarly late on when NZ were being slow to roll away. Make a fecking meal of it. Get the ref to look for it. If nothing else then it helps get quick ball, for all the leadership we supposedly have there appear to be a lot of mutes.

Credit in all this to NZ. Do it al day long until the ref notices and then adapt. If he doesn’t then make hay.

Oh apart from the one where Barritt played Shields arm in the air. That should’ve been a penalty. But again we remained quiet....

[Stom]

Yeah, that lies at the captains door... I wonder who that was

[Puja]

As I said on the SH board, Farrell not speaking is a definite improvement and increases our chances of a positive interaction with referees.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Probably a great man to have in the trenches. Doesn’t mean he should leading the troops in to battle. That said, who would you give the captaincy to. Brad Shields’ beard?

[Epaminondas Pules]

Im not sure why you’ve all mentioned the fly half. Yes he’s captain, but nowhere near the lineout. Maybe one of the 8 forwards or SH could possibly have a voice too? Is it only the captain that can speak at all. This isn’t about talking direct to the ref but highlighting something from the oppo that disadvantaged us.

We need leaders and nobody in the pack thought it even worth mentioning.

[16th man]

Given Garces let at least 2 horribly squint AB throws go I don't think he'd have hesitated to ping us for not getting on with it if anyone had decided we were going to step away or flag up their encroaching.

[fivepointer]

Hookers at U16 learn to ask the ref for a gap before throwing in at the l/o. Our guys arent newbies and should have the smarts to stop and ask the ref to enforce the gap.
I'm not a fan of excessive appealing from players, but making the odd point that an opponent is cheating is something that you would expect all sides to do.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Given Garces let at least 2 horribly squint AB throws go I don't think he'd have hesitated to ping us for not getting on with it if anyone had decided we were going to step away or flag up their encroaching.

There is nothing stopping the hooker pointing out the lack of gap, or anyone in the lineout. It’s hapoens regularly in club matches. Everyone in the pack seemed mute in that regard. Fair play NZ, they showed leadership. Our pack toiled, but did not.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Hookers at U16 learn to ask the ref for a gap before throwing in at the l/o. Our guys arent newbies and should have the smarts to stop and ask the ref to enforce the gap.
I'm not a fan of excessive appealing from players, but making the odd point that an opponent is cheating is something that you would expect all sides to do.

Yep and not just hookers. The locks are usually very vocal. Our lineout fell down when the gap closed. It’s awesome from NZ and shite from us.

[Stom]

Im not sure why you’ve all mentioned the fly half. Yes he’s captain, but nowhere near the lineout. Maybe one of the 8 forwards or SH could possibly have a voice too? Is it only the captain that can speak at all. This isn’t about talking direct to the ref but highlighting something from the oppo that disadvantaged us.

Because the captain sets the tone? If he doesn't say a word to the ref, the entire team will clam up. If he's there constantly talking and encouraging his team to flag things, the team will speak.

Farrell has never shown a single captaincy trait. He's not a captain and I don't know why he's given the armband.

When you watched the forwards huddling after Hartley went off, it was George and Underhill doing a lot of talking. The former is understandable: he's been a captain from a young age. But Underhill...that's new. Coupled with his performance, that's a good sign for the future.

[cashead]

Seriously, you couldn't go a couple of minutes during the second half without hearing Read talking to the ref. It was constant, and after the criticisms of his captaincy earlier in the year, it feels like Read's come of age.

On the other hand, I don't remember seeing Farrell approach Garces in the second half, at all. Based on what we've seen though, he'd probably have spent the entire half screaming in Garces' face about all and sundry, so maybe it was for the best.

[Scrumhead]

Im not sure why you’ve all mentioned the fly half. Yes he’s captain, but nowhere near the lineout. Maybe one of the 8 forwards or SH could possibly have a voice too? Is it only the captain that can speak at all. This isn’t about talking direct to the ref but highlighting something from the oppo that disadvantaged us.

Because the captain sets the tone? If he doesn't say a word to the ref, the entire team will clam up. If he's there constantly talking and encouraging his team to flag things, the team will speak.

Farrell has never shown a single captaincy trait. He's not a captain and I don't know why he's given the armband.

When you watched the forwards huddling after Hartley went off, it was George and Underhill doing a lot of talking. The former is understandable: he's been a captain from a young age. But Underhill...that's new. Coupled with his performance, that's a good sign for the future.

100% agree on all points.

Disappointed more vocal/experienced players didn’t make themselves heard though.

[Stom]

Im not sure why you’ve all mentioned the fly half. Yes he’s captain, but nowhere near the lineout. Maybe one of the 8 forwards or SH could possibly have a voice too? Is it only the captain that can speak at all. This isn’t about talking direct to the ref but highlighting something from the oppo that disadvantaged us.

Because the captain sets the tone? If he doesn't say a word to the ref, the entire team will clam up. If he's there constantly talking and encouraging his team to flag things, the team will speak.

Farrell has never shown a single captaincy trait. He's not a captain and I don't know why he's given the armband.

When you watched the forwards huddling after Hartley went off, it was George and Underhill doing a lot of talking. The former is understandable: he's been a captain from a young age. But Underhill...that's new. Coupled with his performance, that's a good sign for the future.

100% agree on all points.

Disappointed more vocal/experienced players didn’t make themselves heard though.

George, yeah. Kruis, yeah. Itoje, yeah. But there was no-one else experienced in that pack! And they all seem to have something in common.

If only I could think what. It might have something to do with Farrell? Do you think?

[Mellsblue]

Because the captain sets the tone? If he doesn't say a word to the ref, the entire team will clam up. If he's there constantly talking and encouraging his team to flag things, the team will speak.

Farrell has never shown a single captaincy trait. He's not a captain and I don't know why he's given the armband.

When you watched the forwards huddling after Hartley went off, it was George and Underhill doing a lot of talking. The former is understandable: he's been a captain from a young age. But Underhill...that's new. Coupled with his performance, that's a good sign for the future.

100% agree on all points.

Disappointed more vocal/experienced players didn’t make themselves heard though.

George, yeah. Kruis, yeah. Itoje, yeah. But there was no-one else experienced in that pack! And they all seem to have something in common.

If only I could think what. It might have something to do with Farrell? Do you think?

Can’t blame Kruis too much as he was pulled before it went completely down the toilet. However, George and Itoje both captained at age grade and are experienced enough to know what’s happening and to get it sorted. All that said, Farrell is captain and he should sort it if no one else does. When I captained the local drinkers XV and the lineout went tits up, and it always went tits up, I asked what the issues were and talked to the ref.

[Timbo]

Jesus, this place is such an echo chamber of Farrell hate.

Lineout went to shit, must be Farrells’s fault. Lol.

[Scrumhead]

Because the captain sets the tone? If he doesn't say a word to the ref, the entire team will clam up. If he's there constantly talking and encouraging his team to flag things, the team will speak.

Farrell has never shown a single captaincy trait. He's not a captain and I don't know why he's given the armband.

When you watched the forwards huddling after Hartley went off, it was George and Underhill doing a lot of talking. The former is understandable: he's been a captain from a young age. But Underhill...that's new. Coupled with his performance, that's a good sign for the future.

100% agree on all points.

Disappointed more vocal/experienced players didn’t make themselves heard though.

George, yeah. Kruis, yeah. Itoje, yeah. But there was no-one else experienced in that pack! And they all seem to have something in common.

If only I could think what. It might have something to do with Farrell? Do you think?

George, Kruis and Itoje are all experienced test players but Wilson and Sheilds have also captained sides in the highest levels of NH or SH rugby too.

[Mellsblue]

Jesus, this place is such an echo chamber of Farrell hate.

Lineout went to shit, must be Farrells’s fault. Lol.

Who said it was Farrell’s fault? What’s being said is that he’s captain, he’s ultimately responsible and he did nothing about it.

[Renniks]

Also, weren't a number of those lineouts his choice to go for?

[Stom]

Jesus, this place is such an echo chamber of Farrell hate.

Lineout went to shit, must be Farrells’s fault. Lol.

I think, unfortunately, my comment preceding yours was not clear enough I wasn't actually blaming Farrell, I was just wondering if there was a link between those 3 experienced international forwards - who were silent - and our captain - who was silent.

Something about...

[I R Geech]

Said it on another thread, the problem with this team are that they re collectively and individually thick.

Pick Launch, give him the armband and get someone (Jonno) in to explain TCUP and how to captain a team.

[Timbo]

Jesus, this place is such an echo chamber of Farrell hate.

Lineout went to shit, must be Farrells’s fault. Lol.

Who said it was Farrell’s fault? What’s being said is that he’s captain, he’s ultimately responsible and he did nothing about it.

He’s not ‘ultimately responsible’. It’s a test match, there’s all sorts of shit going on, he’s 30 yards away trying to get his backline in order...

If there’s no gap at the lineout then one of the 4 Lions test tight 5 forwards that were on the pitch need to do something about it. That’s literally their job.

[Mellsblue]

Jesus, this place is such an echo chamber of Farrell hate.

Lineout went to shit, must be Farrells’s fault. Lol.

Who said it was Farrell’s fault? What’s being said is that he’s captain, he’s ultimately responsible and he did nothing about it.

He’s not ‘ultimately responsible’. It’s a test match, there’s all sorts of shit going on, he’s 30 yards away trying to get his backline in order...

If there’s no gap at the lineout then one of the 4 Lions test tight 5 forwards that were on the pitch need to do something about it. That’s literally their job.

We will have to agree to differ. It went wrong numerous times and he appeared to do nothing. He’s captain, he can’t just worry solely about his responsibilities as a 10. He has to worry about the performance of the whole team. It’s literally his job.

[Oakboy]

In the Telegraph this morning it says that Hartley went off with a thumb injury. So, he may remain 1st choice with some justification where lineout organisation is concerned.

[fivepointer]

Goodness knows i'm no Farrell admirer but its really up to the forwards to sort out issues at the line out.

A captain makes some key decisions and - hopefully - sets a standard for others to follow but he cannot be expected to take responsibility for every facet of play.

The episode is another in which we simply arent quick enough thinking at times. There does seem to be an absence of clear headed, smart thinking to deal with a situation. And we're terrible at dealing with refs. Look at the way Read interacts - and Sam Warburton previously - to see how effective it can be done.

[Digby]

We needed to sort the lineout but I don't know hoping the ref would help us out is what we should be looking for, getting the front jumper up in front would help,throwing somewhere else, and most obviously shortening the line.