Happy?

[WaspInWales]

I've seen a few comments on today's match thread along the lines of '3 out of 4 is good considering who we played', but I am somewhat underwhelmed by it all.

Forgive me as I try to put into words why. I came off my bike on Wednesday and fractured my skull. I've been struggling with concussion since, so concentration and focus is a problem.

Yes, 3 wins out of 4 is good in terms of results. Add in the only defeat is a 1 point loss to the ABs in controversial circumstances, and it looks like we've pushed the very best close, but if we look at those matches individually, I'm less than impressed.

I thought SA were poor and they were missing key players too. You can only play what is in front of you, and we had a number of players missing too, but I thought we were poor. SA were wasteful with ball in hand and we showed very little in the first half.

We played some good rugby against NZ in the first half, but to ignore the conditions the match was played in would be daft. We've all seen the rainfall charts, and we all know it does indeed rain in NZ, but we all know just how much better the ABs can play. England deserve some credit though as they made hay whilst the rain fell, and that was good to see.

Less said about Japan, the better. I think it's fair to say that Jones completely dicked us in the build up and with selection. Japan didn't need any extra motivation, but Eddie still provided it. They played some great rugby in the first half, but they couldn't keep it up. A raft of changes, plus our changes and fitness all swung things back our way and the win was eventually comprehensive.

Then the Aussies came. What an absolute pile of shit they were too. I know they haven't had the 'x factor' for a few years now, but whenever we've played them before, there has been an element of fear about them. They were always seemingly capable of scoring from nothing, but I didn't get that from them today. As much as Farrell tried to prove he has Aussie roots by helping them score, they looked bereft of ideas and unable to perform some simple rugby. Again, you can only play what is in front of you, and we deserved to win. The only surprise was going in at half time all square.

Now, my main concern is defence. We have missed a shocking amount of tackles in our 4 matches. With the world cup not too far away, just how much can we improve our defensive system in the time? Wales and Ireland look very well drilled defensively, and we struggle to make many first up tackles, plus we're falling off players all over the pitch. Missed tackles in Japan could well be the difference between success and an early flight home.

Discipline remains a problem. Only 5 penalties conceded today. Is that a sign of improvement, or the result of what was like men playing an age grade team?

So, I'm not overly happy of where we are as a team and the issues we are having.

9 remains a problem, as do 10, 12 and 15.

There is however, reasons to be cheerful. Cokanasiga looks well suited to test rugby, Wilson, Sinckler, Curry all look good. Moon and Underhill too. Itoje was pretty good throughout, although he did give away a few pointless penalties.

Was great seeing Tuilagi back on the pitch in an England shirt. If he can keep injury free, our midfield is a bit stronger with him in it.

We have enough decent players to be reasonably confident going into a world cup, but as a team, they don't fill me with too much confidence.

No doubt I've missed a few things that I wanted to comment on thanks to not being able to concentrate fully. I've added things to the post, taken things away so not sure if it all makes sense, but feel free to add your thoughts.

Are you happy with things? Does 3 out of 4 mean more than the performances?

It's a results driven business and it could be argued that as long as a team succeeds, it doesn't matter how that happens.

[Galfon]

Coming out of the AI 's with a semblance of a competitive team is a plus, and a few more postions looking covered. - the results add some gloss but have little bearing on the WC due to the home advantage in the AI's and the end of season thing for the opponents. 7/10 happy rating from me.

[Scrumhead]

I’d be more inclined to go with a 6/10. The results were far better than the performances.

On the plus side, I think there are some definite positives to come out of the AIs - specifically Sinckler and Wilson going some way to proving they are test starters. Moon is a real find and Cokanasiga looking like a World Cup bolter.

It’s not necessarily a good thing, but I feel like a few questions have been answered too.

- We’re better in attack with Ford at 10 and Farrell at 12
- Farrell should not be captain
- Daly is not a test fullback
- Cole is a bit crap but Williams is a lot worse

[16th man]

If we'd done nothing else all Autumn I'd at least be pleased having seen Haylett-Petty and Cokanasinga's faces after the former thought he'd lined up a decent hit but was sat on his backside and the latter realised he'd just pinged off an experienced international and had a run at the line.

If we'd played really scintillating open rugby but made errors and got 2/4, I'm pretty sure we'd have people shouting about results being what matters, as it is we scrapped to 3/4 with a 1 point defeat to the ABs off the back off the sort of reffing decision they'd think was kind if it had been in Auckland, so now it's performances that matter.

With a bit of a botched together team we've competed with the SH. Add what we've learned to a returning cast of Launchbury, the Vunipolae, Curry, Hughes and Manu and Watson should they ever be right, and it's looking a damn sight better than it did 3 months ago.

[Mellsblue]

I think we’re in a better place than we were post 6N. The world rankings look spot on to me. It’s NZ & Ireland.....lots of clear blue water.....Wales, Eng and SA...a little bit of clear blue water....Scot etc etc. Given current performances both NZ and Ire will have to s**t their pants, either literally or figuratively, for anyone else to win it.
If we can keep/get the Vunipolas and Tuilagi fit I think we’re probably third favourites. If we play Farrell - Te’o - Tuilagi I’d put us back at 4th/5th.
To answer your question, I’m reasonably happy. We’ve got back to winning ways, the breakdown is no longer a disaster and a few players have really stepped up. On the downside, our attack is none existent.

[Stom]

Look, SA may have stepped up a little from their low point, but they're not a good team (yet). Aus are a shambles. And Japan are tier 3.

So we only really have NZ. And after the first 25 minutes, we were absolutely dreadful.

We do seem to drag most teams down to our level, but we'll struggle to drag Ireland down. At this point, I think it's theirs to lose.

[francoisfou]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen (are there any ladies among us? If so, reveal yourselves- slowly!), it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

[Galfon]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen..it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

This made me a bit happier, (though somewhat miffed I had not thought of it earlier!)

[Mellsblue]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen..it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

This made me a bit happier, (though somewhat miffed I had not thought of it earlier!)

Agreed on both points. My more agricultural ‘Rolipolas’ failed to stick. I hope this one has more success.

[fivepointer]

I'm reasonably content.
3 wins and a 1 point loss to NZ is a very decent return. At the start of the series most of us would have been pleased with that. Werent our rookie back row going to be overwhelmed? Could we be competitive with so many front line players absent? Had Jones the capacity to produce a winning side? in terms of results we've done well.
The performances have been scratchy. We've alternated between being very good, through mediocre to occasionally being woeful. Mostly we've been OK without scaling too many heights, or hitting too many lows.
We are a fit, resilient, tough side. We generally look composed and can handle sides coming strongly at us. We've come back to win games and have shown the ability to turn things around.
Two important elements have really improved. Our work at the breakdown has been transformed, both with and without the ball. Also, our discipline is a lot better.
We need far more fluency in our attack, we need our backs to handle far more, we need to kick less and test defences with greater variety. Defensively we need to make a higher percentage of one on one tackles.
To the players. Sinckler is now our No 1 tight head. Wilson has emerged as a key squad man. Cokanasiga is here to stay. Manu is back. Moon is a real find. We have proper options at 7. Our depth at lock is tremendous.
On the debit side i'm not convinced with Shields, whether Te'o has the kind of subtlety you would like, whether Daly is a FB and the perennial issue of our substandard options at 9.
Right now there are still far too many marginal selection decisions that need to be nailed down. A year out from a WC, you would expect at least 12 out of the starting 15 to be established.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Three wins out of four, returning players including both Vunipolas (EDIT: sorry Vunipolae ), Genge, Launchbury, Robshaw, Curry, Joseph, Watson, which is not an insignificant amount of talent and experience. We got a good feel for some fringe players like Moon, Hepburn, Wilson, Williams who all did OK. I know many have creamed a bit over Wilson but I do recall him giving a fair few penalties away, alongside his good points. Got a look at Mercer, Cokanasiga and Hill. Got Manu back on the pitch, though for me it is an either Teo or Manu, not Teo AND Manu if both are fit. When you look at the experience in certain areas, then having shaky systems at times isn't really that surprising. For example not one of our backrow today had double figure caps. They acquitted themselves well, but were not a sharp cohesive unit really, nior would you expect them to be. Good endeavour, absolutely, but not really a unit. For any team it takes times for combos to bed in and systems to be understood. It takes time to understand what test rugby is about. It doesn't just magically happen at any level, let alone test level. If you've played rugby at any level then you'll know it does take time to get the know the blokes either side and around you, how they play, their weaknesses and strengths and how you can compliment each other. In consideration we did OK. Yes it was turgid at times. Required quite some resolve to get things over the line. Was stuttery and shaky with some glimpses in all areas of good and bad. None of which is really a shock.

There is a good while to go until the six nations, in terms of players getting fit and others injured. If we can get a few of our top players back and fit then we've got the basis of a team that's up there.

[Epaminondas Pules]

I'm reasonably content.
3 wins and a 1 point loss to NZ is a very decent return. At the start of the series most of us would have been pleased with that. Werent our rookie back row going to be overwhelmed? Could we be competitive with so many front line players absent? Had Jones the capacity to produce a winning side? in terms of results we've done well.
The performances have been scratchy. We've alternated between being very good, through mediocre to occasionally being woeful. Mostly we've been OK without scaling too many heights, or hitting too many lows.
We are a fit, resilient, tough side. We generally look composed and can handle sides coming strongly at us. We've come back to win games and have shown the ability to turn things around.
Two important elements have really improved. Our work at the breakdown has been transformed, both with and without the ball. Also, our discipline is a lot better.
We need far more fluency in our attack, we need our backs to handle far more, we need to kick less and test defences with greater variety. Defensively we need to make a higher percentage of one on one tackles.
To the players. Sinckler is now our No 1 tight head. Wilson has emerged as a key squad man. Cokanasiga is here to stay. Manu is back. Moon is a real find. We have proper options at 7. Our depth at lock is tremendous.
On the debit side i'm not convinced with Shields, whether Te'o has the kind of subtlety you would like, whether Daly is a FB and the perennial issue of our substandard options at 9.
Right now there are still far too many marginal selection decisions that need to be nailed down. A year out from a WC, you would expect at least 12 out of the starting 15 to be established.

For me we still don't clear the opposition players well enough and present clean ball to our scrum halves. We seem to focus more on protect the ball than drive past to clear the way for the 9. That said a big improvement. That said the previous benchmark was not very high.

[Stom]

I'm reasonably content.
3 wins and a 1 point loss to NZ is a very decent return. At the start of the series most of us would have been pleased with that. Werent our rookie back row going to be overwhelmed? Could we be competitive with so many front line players absent? Had Jones the capacity to produce a winning side? in terms of results we've done well.
The performances have been scratchy. We've alternated between being very good, through mediocre to occasionally being woeful. Mostly we've been OK without scaling too many heights, or hitting too many lows.
We are a fit, resilient, tough side. We generally look composed and can handle sides coming strongly at us. We've come back to win games and have shown the ability to turn things around.
Two important elements have really improved. Our work at the breakdown has been transformed, both with and without the ball. Also, our discipline is a lot better.
We need far more fluency in our attack, we need our backs to handle far more, we need to kick less and test defences with greater variety. Defensively we need to make a higher percentage of one on one tackles.
To the players. Sinckler is now our No 1 tight head. Wilson has emerged as a key squad man. Cokanasiga is here to stay. Manu is back. Moon is a real find. We have proper options at 7. Our depth at lock is tremendous.
On the debit side i'm not convinced with Shields, whether Te'o has the kind of subtlety you would like, whether Daly is a FB and the perennial issue of our substandard options at 9.
Right now there are still far too many marginal selection decisions that need to be nailed down. A year out from a WC, you would expect at least 12 out of the starting 15 to be established.

You see, I continuously see this idea we should know 60%+ of our 15 by now. I don't agree.

We have:
Mako
Hartley / George
Sinckler
Itoje
Launch / Kruis / Lawes
Robshaw / Wilson / Shields
Curry / Underhill
Billy
Youngs
Farrell / Ford
May
Te'o / Farrell
Slade / Joseph / Tuilagi
Cokanasiga / Watson / Daly
Daly / Brown / Watson

I think that's a perfectly good place to be in at this stage.

[Digby]

No, I don't like the selection, the tactics or the performances

[twitchy]

I think we have to remember who we are missing:

2 x vunipolas who give us so much carrying and go forward. You can argue that top tier teams aren't dependant on certain players. I would say we are aren't top tier we are in the "best of the rest" category.

We have depth in other areas but if we want to do a any thing at the WC we need both these guys fully fit. Japan (correct me if I'm wrong) will be hard pitches and mild/hot temps (nothing like the vertical rain that we had vs NZ).

[Which Tyler]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen (are there any ladies among us? If so, reveal yourselves- slowly!), it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

Errrr... That name has been in use for a good 5 years.


Overall, I'm happy with the AI window.
We've won some matches, which will be very good for the squad's mentality.
We've done so absent some very important players.
Those matches may all have been scrappy, but we're not peaking too early, and could very easily have won all 4, and even should have beaten the All Blacks.
We've confirmed a few players as definitely good enough to go to the RWC - Moon, Underhill, Curry, Wilson, Cokanasiga.
We've confirmed some options as not being good enough (at least, not yet) - Ewels, Mercer (apparently, I'd still have him ahead of Hughes, but Eddie won't) Care, Lozowski.
We now know that Hartley needs to start any crunch match, that Slade and Te'o are backup players only, same with Daly at FB; we now have an alternative to Nowell, but knowmthat we Brown has to go to Japan.

We've remembered how to win, we've learned a lot, but still have lots to work on and 7-8 matches to do so.


ETA, Eddie's stopped beasting the players, now they need some down-time to realise any benefits from the last 18 months training regime. Over to the clubs and 6N to allow that.

[Oakboy]

I think we have the player depth in all positions except SH. What bothers me is that Jones's management has not produced the steady building process that is the best way to improve the team unit over a 4 year period. Ireland have shown how it should be done. Indeed, the relative improvement in the 4 AI games compared to the horror show of the last 6N, may be down to Mitchell for all we know.

Jones has only ever been about results. How many of us really rated the style and performance during the initial winning sequence? We were lucky but we were winners. Then came the slump. Were we unlucky or poor? Now, are we transformed or are we just functional?

Jones, as Stom insists, may have most positions inked in. Jones was quoted before the Australia game as saying he had 31 out of 35 (is it 35 and not 36, by the way?). Does that mean things are settled, though?

I still feel Jones is muddling along. Maybe, the next 11 months will see a steady building process. Somehow, there is still something missing, certainly in terms of true 80 minute application.

Happy? No. Unconvinced.

[Stom]

I think we have to remember who we are missing:

2 x vunipolas who give us so much carrying and go forward. You can argue that top tier teams aren't dependant on certain players. I would say we are aren't top tier we are in the "best of the rest" category.

We have depth in other areas but if we want to do a any thing at the WC we need both these guys fully fit. Japan (correct me if I'm wrong) will be hard pitches and mild/hot temps (nothing like the vertical rain that we had vs NZ).

Take Sexton out of Ireland. With Murray out, too.
Take Retallick and the good Whitelock out of NZ.

They are seriously weakened.

Everyone can be weakened by the loss of 2 top tier internationals.

[francoisfou]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen (are there any ladies among us? If so, reveal yourselves- slowly!), it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

Errrr... That name has been in use for a good 5 years

Just goes to prove that my powers of observation are not improving with age!!

[fivepointer]

I'm reasonably content.
3 wins and a 1 point loss to NZ is a very decent return. At the start of the series most of us would have been pleased with that. Werent our rookie back row going to be overwhelmed? Could we be competitive with so many front line players absent? Had Jones the capacity to produce a winning side? in terms of results we've done well.
The performances have been scratchy. We've alternated between being very good, through mediocre to occasionally being woeful. Mostly we've been OK without scaling too many heights, or hitting too many lows.
We are a fit, resilient, tough side. We generally look composed and can handle sides coming strongly at us. We've come back to win games and have shown the ability to turn things around.
Two important elements have really improved. Our work at the breakdown has been transformed, both with and without the ball. Also, our discipline is a lot better.
We need far more fluency in our attack, we need our backs to handle far more, we need to kick less and test defences with greater variety. Defensively we need to make a higher percentage of one on one tackles.
To the players. Sinckler is now our No 1 tight head. Wilson has emerged as a key squad man. Cokanasiga is here to stay. Manu is back. Moon is a real find. We have proper options at 7. Our depth at lock is tremendous.
On the debit side i'm not convinced with Shields, whether Te'o has the kind of subtlety you would like, whether Daly is a FB and the perennial issue of our substandard options at 9.
Right now there are still far too many marginal selection decisions that need to be nailed down. A year out from a WC, you would expect at least 12 out of the starting 15 to be established.

You see, I continuously see this idea we should know 60%+ of our 15 by now. I don't agree.

We have:
Mako
Hartley / George
Sinckler
Itoje
Launch / Kruis / Lawes
Robshaw / Wilson / Shields
Curry / Underhill
Billy
Youngs
Farrell / Ford
May
Te'o / Farrell
Slade / Joseph / Tuilagi
Cokanasiga / Watson / Daly
Daly / Brown / Watson

I think that's a perfectly good place to be in at this stage.

I think you make my point for me!
6 nailed on starters at this stage is not ideal and puts us well behind some of the other main contenders.
Now we do have some depth in most positions but still too many calls to make on the definitive starter.
I guess we could make a decent stab at predicting Eddie's first choice team, but have they actually played together much, and how many chances will they get to play together before the WC?

[Puja]

the Vunipolae,

Gentlemen..it appears we have a Latin scholar in our midst!

This made me a bit happier, (though somewhat miffed I had not thought of it earlier!)

That leads to some obvious corrolaries - Curries and Willia brothers strike me immediately.

Puja

[Sandydragon]

With no wish to labour a point, but Farrell tackling is going to cost you a game at some point. The no arm tackles are going to get him a card, a ref will be brave enough to do it. He has been lucky in two games and if he feels that it’s ok then you can just see him repeat g that effort in a RWC quarter final, giving away a penalty try and getting carded, as he should have done yesterday.

Whilst he keeps getting lauded as world class it won’t change, but I am surprised that he is getting away with challenges which are so risky.

[Scrumhead]

I think I already said this elsewhere, but I’d have been happy if Farrell had been carded and I would have had no issue with a penalty try.

If he continues to go unpunished, his ‘tackling’ technique is not going to improve. I think there’s a fair few of us that want him to be pulled up on it. I’d prefer that moment to be for Sarries than for England, but it needs to happen and the sooner the better IMO.

[twitchy]

With no wish to labour a point, but Farrell tackling is going to cost you a game at some point. The no arm tackles are going to get him a card, a ref will be brave enough to do it. He has been lucky in two games and if he feels that it’s ok then you can just see him repeat g that effort in a RWC quarter final, giving away a penalty try and getting carded, as he should have done yesterday.

Whilst he keeps getting lauded as world class it won’t change, but I am surprised that he is getting away with challenges which are so risky.

Please take this discussion to the farrell discussion containment zone thread and don't infect this one.

[Tigersman]

Very Happy with the AI's TBH I learnt a lot
Excellent
Moon gone from what 7th choice LH to being a International LH prop who can go up against the 3 SH teams, massive with Marler ruling himself out.
Wilson always thought he wouldn't be that impactful at test level just a good all round backrower at prem level, but i was very wrong. Doesn't have the same threat as Bunipola BUT his workrate was up there with Robshaw's and offers a much better carrying threat.
Cokasigna defence still yet to be properly tested but he offered something May, Nowell, Watson, Daly doesn't and that is a powerful running game.
Sinckler finished with the same world class form he showed with the lions.

Good
May is still world class at test level IMO, Leicester might be struggling but May has improved a lot in his all round game.
Tuilagi 10 mins still showed players are fearful of him, creating a massive hole for Farrell to jog in.
Ewels has put serious pressure on the Second row players, and offered impact in every game.
Wigglesworth played well with his chances.

The fact that we have found some more depth at LH, Backrow, Wing and Lock makes it worth while going into the 6N's.
The centre combo isn't close to being fixed but I reckon Eddie thinks it is and will IMO favour 10. Faz, 12. Te'o, 13. Manu if fit IMO.

I think Eddie is 5 steps closer to finding his RWC squad, (I don't like the squad I can see him picking but reckon it will fit his desired plan well) whereas after the summer tours I was very worried that Eddie Jones was having no idea who to pick.