RugbyRebels

Saracens: Goode: Maitland, Tompkins. Lozowski, Williams; Farrell, Wigglesworth; M Vunipola, George, Koch, Itoje, Kruis, Wray, Burger, B Vunipola.

Replacements: Tolofua, Barrington, Judge, Skelton, Earl, Spence, Bosch, Strettle

Lyon: Arnold; Nakaitaci, Barassi, Regard, Palisson; Wisniewski, Doussain; Menini, Lacombe, Gomez Kodela, Roodt, Van der Merwe, Puricelli (captain), Cretin, Fourie.

Replacements: Maurouard, Buckle, Yameogo, Oosthuizen, Gill, Wulf, Buttin, McLeod.

So kicked out on the full twice. But again Farrell escapes criticism from commentators

Lovely from Mako.

Lovely from Mako.

And Farrell now fails to find touch with penalty

Another world class kick from Faz

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p/d wrote:And Farrell now fails to find touch with penalty

The one time you see him go for distance he ballses it up. Now, he'll be back to conservative, safe punts for England. Let's face it, he is just not very good at kicking from hand. Bloody Kay even said such balls-ups were rare.

Lovely from Tomkins

Dirty Bertie Buckle

Dear god the standard of passing in this is poor.

Itoje is a real liability discipline-wise.

Not surprised Farrell been subbed. He was one more no arms tackle from a card

Farrell really has got to start tackling properly. More arm flapping today, along with generally mediocre kicking and distribution.
Saracens werent up to that much, but helped by fact that Lyon were even worse.
Tompkins took his 2 tries exceptionally well.

Oakboy wrote:Itoje is a real liability discipline-wise.

I thought Itoje was very hard done by actually. He came from onside, slapped the ball backwards - where's the penalty? Plus, even if it was a penalty, it should've been reversed by the fact that they went back for the TMO for the stamp. Since it wasn't foul play, the first offence should've applied and the yellow card for repeated infringement overturned.

He wasn't at his best anyway - barring him coming back to form next week, I'd have him on the bench for England with Launchbury/Lawes starting.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Itoje is a real liability discipline-wise.

I thought Itoje was very hard done by actually. He came from onside, slapped the ball backwards - where's the penalty? Plus, even if it was a penalty, it should've been reversed by the fact that they went back for the TMO for the stamp. Since it wasn't foul play, the first offence should've applied and the yellow card for repeated infringement overturned.

He wasn't at his best anyway - barring him coming back to form next week, I'd have him on the bench for England with Launchbury/Lawes starting.

Puja

Agreed but a yellow card is a yellow card even if he just got it on reputation. Streetwise international opposition probably find him easy to wind up. I like his competitve edge but I expected him to be too intelligent to get caught as often as he does. He drinks from the same cup as Farrell, presumably, but (remarkably) does not get away with things like golden bollix.

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Itoje is a real liability discipline-wise.

I thought Itoje was very hard done by actually. He came from onside, slapped the ball backwards - where's the penalty? Plus, even if it was a penalty, it should've been reversed by the fact that they went back for the TMO for the stamp. Since it wasn't foul play, the first offence should've applied and the yellow card for repeated infringement overturned.

He wasn't at his best anyway - barring him coming back to form next week, I'd have him on the bench for England with Launchbury/Lawes starting.

Puja

Agreed but a yellow card is a yellow card even if he just got it on reputation. Streetwise international opposition probably find him easy to wind up. I like his competitve edge but I expected him to be too intelligent to get caught as often as he does. He drinks from the same cup as Farrell, presumably, but (remarkably) does not get away with things like golden bollix.

Yeah, but what was the offence he committed? I'm all for getting Itoje to sort out his discipline, but I'm willing to give him a pass on a yellow for an imaginary offence.

Puja

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Puja wrote:
I thought Itoje was very hard done by actually. He came from onside, slapped the ball backwards - where's the penalty? Plus, even if it was a penalty, it should've been reversed by the fact that they went back for the TMO for the stamp. Since it wasn't foul play, the first offence should've applied and the yellow card for repeated infringement overturned.

He wasn't at his best anyway - barring him coming back to form next week, I'd have him on the bench for England with Launchbury/Lawes starting.

Puja

Agreed but a yellow card is a yellow card even if he just got it on reputation. Streetwise international opposition probably find him easy to wind up. I like his competitve edge but I expected him to be too intelligent to get caught as often as he does. He drinks from the same cup as Farrell, presumably, but (remarkably) does not get away with things like golden bollix.

Yeah, but what was the offence he committed? I'm all for getting Itoje to sort out his discipline, but I'm willing to give him a pass on a yellow for an imaginary offence.

Puja

It also struck me as a ‘team yellow’, and Kay said the same, so it seems harsh to single him out.

Mellsblue wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
Agreed but a yellow card is a yellow card even if he just got it on reputation. Streetwise international opposition probably find him easy to wind up. I like his competitve edge but I expected him to be too intelligent to get caught as often as he does. He drinks from the same cup as Farrell, presumably, but (remarkably) does not get away with things like golden bollix.

Yeah, but what was the offence he committed? I'm all for getting Itoje to sort out his discipline, but I'm willing to give him a pass on a yellow for an imaginary offence.

Puja

It also struck me as a ‘team yellow’, and Kay said the same, so it seems harsh to single him out.

Quite, but I'm suggesting that his reputation leads to harshness and 'bad luck'. He was probably completely innocent in that particular incident which makes it worse not better. It didn't affect the result but it may have done in other circumstances. IMO, he needs to cut out the irrelevant nuisance stuff on the fringe. He is likely to be seen by referees as the catalyst for a lot of ugliness and therefore a perfect candidate for a team yellow.

Little SHs can be swatted aside when they are feisty, mouthy nuisances. Itoje is too big for that physically. He needs to channel his aggressive instincts with more brainy application and not get so obviously on the wrong side of referees. It's only 2% of his game but it's a useless part of it - in that it's ineffective, a waste of energy and a penalty/card waiting to happen ('lucky' or not).

fivepointer wrote:Farrell really has got to start tackling properly. More arm flapping today, along with generally mediocre kicking and distribution.
Saracens werent up to that much, but helped by fact that Lyon were even worse.
Tompkins took his 2 tries exceptionally well.

I wonder if Farrell is starting to suffer from damage to his shoulders and is now looking to protect them? He's regressing rather than improving

I thought MVunipola was great in this game. Loads of massive tackles, dominant scrum and he’s probably the only prop in the world who could give two lovely passes right on the gain line for try’s and nobody even says a word.

His brilliance has become passé.

(Except for Mellsblue)

All the papers and commentators praised Mako.

Though in the DT write up of the game, I quote: ‘Farrell’s on-field presence and leadership was crucial in allowing outside centre Nick Tompkins to shine’

Have we reached the point he’s actually more hyped up than Wilkinson ever was? I think we might have.

Mikey Brown wrote:Have we reached the point he’s actually more hyped up than Wilkinson ever was? I think we might have.

Are both equally revered by fellow-pros? And, does the difference come with JW having been universally popular with fans whereas with Farrell it is 50/50?

There are other similarities: CH's hands were always better than JW's just as Cipriani and Ford are far better handlers than Farrell.

Leaving what? Maybe, just the public perception of Farrell's tee-kicking skills as being similar to JW's?

My personal opinion is that JW WAS as good as he was made out to be but Farrell just is NOT.

Having said that, within Jones's playing style, Farrell is probably our most effective FH. Sadly, that will always limit the overall height of our potential performance and we are stuck with him.

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Have we reached the point he’s actually more hyped up than Wilkinson ever was? I think we might have.

Are both equally revered by fellow-pros? And, does the difference come with JW having been universally popular with fans whereas with Farrell it is 50/50?

There are other similarities: CH's hands were always better than JW's just as Cipriani and Ford are far better handlers than Farrell.

Leaving what? Maybe, just the public perception of Farrell's tee-kicking skills as being similar to JW's?

My personal opinion is that JW WAS as good as he was made out to be but Farrell just is NOT.

Having said that, within Jones's playing style, Farrell is probably our most effective FH. Sadly, that will always limit the overall height of our potential performance and we are stuck with him.

I think Farrell is as popular as he is with the public as he has the qualities people most associate with JW, ie big tackles and reliable off the tee.

Mellsblue wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Mikey Brown wrote:Have we reached the point he’s actually more hyped up than Wilkinson ever was? I think we might have.

Are both equally revered by fellow-pros? And, does the difference come with JW having been universally popular with fans whereas with Farrell it is 50/50?

There are other similarities: CH's hands were always better than JW's just as Cipriani and Ford are far better handlers than Farrell.

Leaving what? Maybe, just the public perception of Farrell's tee-kicking skills as being similar to JW's?

My personal opinion is that JW WAS as good as he was made out to be but Farrell just is NOT.

Having said that, within Jones's playing style, Farrell is probably our most effective FH. Sadly, that will always limit the overall height of our potential performance and we are stuck with him.

I think Farrell is as popular as he is with the public as he has the qualities people most associate with JW, ie big tackles and reliable off the tee.

Do you think a chunk of that opinion is wishful thinking? For example, I have yet to speak to anyone who does NOT think that Farrell has been lucky to stay on the pitch after his no-arms tackles.