RugbyRebels

The second half meltdown is becoming an increasingly worrying theme and yesterday’s debacle is actually just the latest in a clear trend.

An implosion after half time is exactly what happened against Wales and I’d also argue that we fell away badly against France - they just weren’t good enough to exploit it.

If you think back to the SA tour and the AIs, this has been going on for a while. We tend to start well and then as soon as momentum shifts, we’re unable to get it back, we panic and any tactical sensibility goes out of the window. We almost did it against NZ, but it is a worrying theme.

Youngs and Farrell have been particularly culpable, but the same happened in SA with Ford on the pitch so I think it’s bigger than that.

Leadership is part of it. We need a calm, experienced head as captain and clearly Farrell is not that person. I wonder whether we almost have two sides. A first half team to build a score and a second half side including the likes of Hartley and Ford with the wherewithal to see it out?

As an aside, I do acknowledge that we were excellent against Ireland across the full 80, but given how poor they’ve been since, it’s hard to know how much to read in to that result. On the one hand you could argue that their poor performances in the 6N have been as a result of our win in Dublin, but on the other hand you could argue we were just the first to play this off-colour version of the Irish team.

We explode out of the blocks, but once our intensity drops the opposition get to play there game and suddenly we look vulnerable. Especially when faced with a player of Russell’s quality. Boy did we look pants once he got the ball in behind our back 3.

Really not sure a bench can change that, though perhaps the likes of Goode, Wigglesworth and Robshaw could tighten things up and gain ya field position

Oh, and the shift of play yesterday came after around the half hour mark

Scrumhead wrote:If you think back to the SA tour and the AIs, this has been going on for a while. We tend to start well and then as soon as momentum shifts, we’re unable to get it back, we panic and any tactical sensibility goes out of the window. We almost did it against NZ, but it is a worrying theme.

Youngs and Farrell have been particularly culpable, but the same happened in SA with Ford on the pitch so I think it’s bigger than that.

True Ford was on the pitch, but Farrell was too and was captain as Hartley wasn't playing then either. I'm not aiming to blame Farrell btw, just pointing out that he was involved and it is often suggested that he runs the game from 10 or 12 (somewhat neutering Ford).

That aside, it is such a bad habit to have gotten into. Is it that it takes teams a while to figure us out? Is it that they change tactics, and we don't adjust accordingly?

Interestingly, watching Wales yesterday I never thought Ireland would get back into it.

No, neither did I, but then at half time, I wouldn’t have given Scotland a prayer of getting anything from us.

p/d wrote:We explode out of the blocks, but once our intensity drops the opposition get to play there game and suddenly we look vulnerable. Especially when faced with a player of Russell’s quality. Boy did we look pants once he got the ball in behind our back 3.

Really not sure a bench can change that, though perhaps the likes of Goode, Wigglesworth and Robshaw could tighten things up and gain ya field position

Maybe it’s horses for courses depending upon the opposition, but I can see a lot of benefits to bringing on Hartley, Ford and possibly Robshaw and Brown for the last 30 in a game where we’re ahead.

He problem is, if we pick that bench on the expectation of them closing out a game we’re leading, they wouldn’t be the right bench if things don’t play out like that and we’re chasing the game.

Personally I think when we get ahead we revert back to the comfort zone of kicking, rather than kicking on. So having negative subs like Hartley would only exacerbate that.

We have a fixed, inflexible mindset, and certainly EP- whilst being a tad condescending- was right to highlight the mental side of the game, and we are mentally fragile for sure. Lack of leadership is another side of that coin; I do also wonder whether we need to 'even out the intensity.....as our legs and especially defence seem to buckle after half time. The mental side and the intensity drop off are linked- self belief disappears along with energy. It may also be that our conditioning is off- Eddie maybe seeing great stats in training, but that's without the physical pounding and mental sapping that can occur.

What's this 'mental side' of the game?

p/d wrote:What's this 'mental side' of the game?

ask EP

I agree with a lot of the stuff that’s already been said, i’d only add that invariably teams tend to take on the personality of their head coaches. In this case England are incredibly aggressive, confrontational, direct...but we also seem very stressy to me.

As soon as the initial whirlwind blows over and there’s a break in our momentum, we have a chance to collectively think and we start to doubt/stress/worry. And the big problem is that once this sort of thing has happened once or twice it becomes part of a teams psyche.

Scrumhead wrote:No, neither did I, but then at half time, I wouldn’t have given Scotland a prayer of getting anything from us.

I didn’t expect Scotland to come back in the manner they did, but I sensed a slight anxiety from the team the moment they scored their first try. Then early in the 2nd half when Daly kicked the ball out and they had a scrum all the way back in our half it felt like the team were having some doubts.

Timbo wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:No, neither did I, but then at half time, I wouldn’t have given Scotland a prayer of getting anything from us.

I didn’t expect Scotland to come back in the manner they did, but I sensed a slight anxiety from the team the moment they scored their first try. Then early in the 2nd half when Daly kicked the ball out and they had a scrum all the way back in our half it felt like the team were having some doubts.

Agreed- that chargedown and then McInally not being brought down had me worrying a bit about them.

Timbo wrote:I agree with a lot of the stuff that’s already been said, i’d only add that invariably teams tend to take on the personality of their head coaches. In this case England are incredibly aggressive, confrontational, direct...but we also seem very stressy to me.

As soon as the initial whirlwind blows over and there’s a break in our momentum, we have a chance to collectively think and we start to doubt/stress/worry. And the big problem is that once this sort of thing has happened once or twice it becomes part of a teams psyche.

They are turning into Ewoks!

Banquo wrote:

Timbo wrote:I agree with a lot of the stuff that’s already been said, i’d only add that invariably teams tend to take on the personality of their head coaches. In this case England are incredibly aggressive, confrontational, direct...but we also seem very stressy to me.

As soon as the initial whirlwind blows over and there’s a break in our momentum, we have a chance to collectively think and we start to doubt/stress/worry. And the big problem is that once this sort of thing has happened once or twice it becomes part of a teams psyche.

They are turning into Ewoks!

Chris Boyd could be a nice antidote. So impressed by what he’s doing at Saints.

Banquo wrote:Personally I think when we get ahead we revert back to the comfort zone of kicking, rather than kicking on.

I agree, but I don’t know why kicking would ever be a ‘comfort zone’ though? I just think it’s always too much of a lottery to rely on. Having a good kicker and a good chase can make it more than a 50/50 and when it works well, it’s a great way of making cheap yards, but it relies on a kicker with consistently excellent execution and chasers who are perfectly in tune.

When Youngs and May are on the same wavelength and execute well, it can be a useful weapon, but as we’ve seen on a number of occasions, Youngs’ box kicking isn’t reliable and he quite often fails to notice that the chaser he has in mind is at the bottom of a ruck ...

Ireland at their best did it very well, but It’s never been their only tactic. We seem to be relying on it a little too much based upon the success we had against a terrible exposed French back three.

Scrumhead wrote:

Banquo wrote:Personally I think when we get ahead we revert back to the comfort zone of kicking, rather than kicking on.

I agree, but I don’t know why kicking would ever be a ‘comfort zone’ though? I just think it’s always too much of a lottery to rely on. Having a good kicker and a good chase can make it more than a 50/50 and when it works well, it’s a great way of making cheap yards, but it relies on a kicker with consistently excellent execution and chasers who are perfectly in tune.

When Youngs and May are on the same wavelength and execute well, it can be a useful weapon, but as we’ve seen on a number of occasions, Youngs’ box kicking isn’t reliable and he quite often fails to notice that the chaser he has in mind is at the bottom of a ruck ...

Ireland at their best did it very well, but It’s never been their only tactic. We seem to be relying on it a little too much based upon the success we had against a terrible exposed French back three.

Because its about forcing the oppos to make mistakes- as Dwyer said, any idiot can coach a side to win by kicking it . You have highlighted exactly why it isn't comfortable for us- but a well drilled side, like say NZ who kick a lot- will make gradual territorial gains and increase pressure like that.

England showed v Ireland how that can work, and how its relatively comfortable because it doesn't require much decision making compared to multi-phase work. The downside is when the side you give the ball too are happy to have it, and either kick better than you. or can retain the ball quite happily.....if you don't execute the kick and chase perfectly.

No argument from me- I've said, wearily now, for years that we kick too much and badly. The first reaction of many of our players is to kick, in almost any position where they can't see an easy pass.

I really wish an influential player in the forwards would turn around and say ‘what the fu%k are you doing kicking it away every time’. The trouble is, that person doesn’t seem to exist for us ...

Scrumhead wrote:I really wish an influential player in the forwards would turn around and say ‘what the fu%k are you doing kicking it away every time’. The trouble is, that person doesn’t seem to exist for us ...

That's my concern. You'd think George, Launch, Kruis or Billy would have the stones to do so.

Yep. Any of those you’ve mentioned are more than experienced enough to do so. So is Wilson, albeit not at test level.

Ironically someone like Wilson, Curry, Underhill or even Shields who aren’t Sarries players and have less experience under the pervasive ‘power of Owen’ might be better placed to say something. Launch doesn’t seem like that guy and the others are too used to obeying Farrell.

Scrumhead wrote:I really wish an influential player in the forwards would turn around and say ‘what the fu%k are you doing kicking it away every time’. The trouble is, that person doesn’t seem to exist for us ...

It's why the skipper needs to be a forward.
SH and FH are the ones doing the kicking, they aren't going to turn around and tell themselves to stop fucking about.

Which Tyler wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:I really wish an influential player in the forwards would turn around and say ‘what the fu%k are you doing kicking it away every time’. The trouble is, that person doesn’t seem to exist for us ...

It's why the skipper needs to be a forward.
SH and FH are the ones doing the kicking, they aren't going to turn around and tell themselves to stop fucking about.

Definitely. I suspect that if Jonno had wanted to keep the ball in hand more then his half backs would have obliged. The half backs are the key decision makers, if they are making poor decisions then they need to be told, which is hard if one of them is actually the captain.

Make Mako captain.... silent destroyer

We are well and truly fucked for the wc. We may do better than last time, fingers crossed, but does anyone seriously think we have a strong chance?

We're not shit by any stretch, but we're just not as good as we need to be.

Wales have just won a GS, well deserved one too, but they didn't need the most flamboyant, attacking rugby to do it, but by fuck do they know how to defend and do it in disciplined manner! They have a real chance to kick on for more greatness.

What do we have? The ability to score a few nice tries...all good until we then concede a load.

Just hope Eddie can see where we're coming up short and has a cunning plan to put it right

I also hope he stops making the oppositions team talk for them. I get why coaches may want to try deflecting pressure off their own team, but he has managed to rile other teams up with his attempts at wummery. Tired Wales, Scotland not winning at HQ for a billion years...come on mate. Wales are one of the fittest teams in the world and records are there to be broken.

I’m in the gym and picking up BBC Breakfast, inbetween benching 180kg one handed, by reading the subtitles. Have I just read that Jones is still blaming the last RWC and that players who didn’t react correctly - something about bombs going off around you in a war zone - need replacing?!?!?

WaspInWales wrote:We are well and truly fucked for the wc. We may do better than last time, fingers crossed, but does anyone seriously think we have a strong chance?

We're not shit by any stretch, but we're just not as good as we need to be.

Wales have just won a GS, well deserved one too, but they didn't need the most flamboyant, attacking rugby to do it, but by fuck do they know how to defend and do it in disciplined manner! They have a real chance to kick on for more greatness.

What do we have? The ability to score a few nice tries...all good until we then concede a load.

Just hope Eddie can see where we're coming up short and has a cunning plan to put it right

I also hope he stops making the oppositions team talk for them. I get why coaches may want to try deflecting pressure off their own team, but he has managed to rile other teams up with his attempts at wummery. Tired Wales, Scotland not winning at HQ for a billion years...come on mate. Wales are one of the fittest teams in the world and records are there to be broken.

Dont downplay that element. Its usually far harder to be creative and score tries than it is to defend.

And we can defend very well at times. Our problem is inconsistency. Veering from the sublime to the ridiculous within the space of a matter of minutes. There is an underlying problem with maintaining intensity and focus.