RPA awards

[Gloskarlos]

Enough kudos involved for there to be a Glos player in the WC squad?

Or dare I dream even two?

Cips and Thorley fairly deserved winners I think, although stiff competition all round. Will Eddie waver in the face of player opinion (we know he doesn’t in the face of public opinion)

[Banquo]

Enough kudos involved for there to be a Glos player in the WC squad?

Or dare I dream even two?

Cips and Thorley fairly deserved winners I think, although stiff competition all round. Will Eddie waver in the face of player opinion (we know he doesn’t in the face of public opinion)

Hasn't he already called Thorley up once? MInd, not sure who he would knock out of the squad?

[fivepointer]

Cips is very unlikely to feature for England. That is a great pity as he is easily the best FH in England. His award is very well deserved.

Thorley has a genuine WC chance. He's up against stiff opposition but he should be in the preliminary squad.

[Stom]

Cips is very unlikely to feature for England. That is a great pity as he is easily the best FH in England. His award is very well deserved.

Thorley has a genuine WC chance. He's up against stiff opposition but he should be in the preliminary squad.

Is he, though?

I mean, really?

Because I can't see it. 2nd best, sure. But if I had to choose a FH, I'd pick Ford every day of the week. Just allows more flexibility.

[Puja]

Cips is very unlikely to feature for England. That is a great pity as he is easily the best FH in England. His award is very well deserved.

Thorley has a genuine WC chance. He's up against stiff opposition but he should be in the preliminary squad.

Is he, though?

I mean, really?

Because I can't see it. 2nd best, sure. But if I had to choose a FH, I'd pick Ford every day of the week. Just allows more flexibility.

Agreed. Ford fits into a system. Cipriani only works if the system is designed around him.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Cips is very unlikely to feature for England. That is a great pity as he is easily the best FH in England. His award is very well deserved.

Thorley has a genuine WC chance. He's up against stiff opposition but he should be in the preliminary squad.

Is he, though?

I mean, really?

Because I can't see it. 2nd best, sure. But if I had to choose a FH, I'd pick Ford every day of the week. Just allows more flexibility.

Yes, really.

[Oakboy]

Cips is very unlikely to feature for England. That is a great pity as he is easily the best FH in England. His award is very well deserved.

Thorley has a genuine WC chance. He's up against stiff opposition but he should be in the preliminary squad.

Is he, though?

I mean, really?

Because I can't see it. 2nd best, sure. But if I had to choose a FH, I'd pick Ford every day of the week. Just allows more flexibility.

Yes, really.

Yes, really BUT . . .

Several buts. Youngs and Farrell should not be in the 23 with Cipriani, the former because his service would neuter Cipriani's game and the latter because he doesn't understand or believe in heads-up rugby.

Cipriani has an extra dimension over Ford, IMO, but (yes, another one) Ford buys into the Farrell nonsense and will remain the poor little guy content to be in his shadow. Thus, Ford CAN play at 10 with Farrell at 12 and he won't be disruptive if he's on the bench with Farrell starting at 10. Cipriani simply can't be subservient so his face will never fit with Jones in charge.

[twitchy]

I've given up cheerleading for cips with EJ in charge. You just know he will select faz no matter what.

Reposting this quote.






World Cup-winning coach Graham Henry has criticised England for being "the world champions at wasting talent" and playing "a game based on fear".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/16788074

[Mellsblue]

They are both utter quality. Both have different skill sets and I’d be happy with either playing for England. I’d prefer Ford as I think he is a better game manager and is slightly better manipulating a defensive line. For me, it’s close and anyone who says one is indisputably the better is wrong. Sadly, neither of them will see meaningful game time for England without injury to Farrell.

[twitchy]

So what exactly does "picking your team around him" actually entail given that any good coach should select players that compliment each other?

Pick the england backs that have to "fit" with cips:

[Which Tyler]

They are both utter quality. Both have different skill sets and I’d be happy with either playing for England. I’d prefer Ford as I think he is a better game manager and is slightly better manipulating a defensive line. For me, it’s close and anyone who says one is indisputably the better is wrong. Sadly, neither of them will see meaningful game time for England without injury to Farrell.

This.
I think that Cips is maybe slightly better (or possibly slightly more willing to show) the individual skills; and better at spotting and executing on the hoof; whilst Ford is better at the chess-game aspect of FH play; manipulating a defence to exploit in 3 phases time, and creating things slightly further away from where he actually is.
Keep the camera zoomed in, and it's Cips; step back and take a view of the match as a whole, and it's Ford - but not a lot in it at any particular aspect.

At club rugby, both are worth a couple of league places on their own.

[Puja]

So what exactly does "picking your team around him" actually entail given that any good coach should select players that compliment each other?

Pick the england backs that have to "fit" with cips:

It's not just about picking players that complement each other. The bits about Cipriani that make the pundits swoon, like the no-look passes, don't just happen because everyone's magically in synch with each other, they happen because the entire backs division is drilled to be in synch with Cipriani. This is great if a) you have the amount of time that a club has with players, b) you have a playing group happy to suborn themselves to being assistants to Cips, and c) Cipriani never gets injured, falls out of form, or is worked out by opposition defences.

It's a hell of a gamble to be building your entire attacking game based on the availability of one player, as Gloucester can attest this season when he's been absent. And I'm not convinced that Cipriani-ball would hold up against top international defences that knew if you neutralised Danny, you neutralise England completely.

I'm not saying that he's not a good player or that he can't play when he doesn't have the team built around him. But you won't get what you see at club level at international level, unless you do the same as his club are doing for him and that's not really feasible.

Puja

[Puja]

At club rugby, both are worth a couple of league places on their own.

Or in Leicester's case, a whole division.

Puja

[Gloskarlos]

So what exactly does "picking your team around him" actually entail given that any good coach should select players that compliment each other?

Pick the england backs that have to "fit" with cips:

It's not just about picking players that complement each other. The bits about Cipriani that make the pundits swoon, like the no-look passes, don't just happen because everyone's magically in synch with each other, they happen because the entire backs division is drilled to be in synch with Cipriani. This is great if a) you have the amount of time that a club has with players, b) you have a playing group happy to suborn themselves to being assistants to Cips, and c) Cipriani never gets injured, falls out of form, or is worked out by opposition defences.

It's a hell of a gamble to be building your entire attacking game based on the availability of one player, as Gloucester can attest this season when he's been absent. And I'm not convinced that Cipriani-ball would hold up against top international defences that knew if you neutralised Danny, you neutralise England completely.

I'm not saying that he's not a good player or that he can't play when he doesn't have the team built around him. But you won't get what you see at club level at international level, unless you do the same as his club are doing for him and that's not really feasible.

Puja

I think this is partially true, but also does Cips and any understudy a bit of a disservice. Absolutely part of Gloucester success this season comes from Danny having a large say in how the backs are run. But that has been spread throughout the back line and we have been better still than most when he has been injured or subbed.

Glos haven’t built a team around Danny, far from it, they have just worked together effectively.

Frankly senior players should be having an input to ‘systems’ and players blindly following said systems arguably buy in to being one dimensional. I’m not so down with that. Danny wouldn’t have to rule the roost, only have an input, to make a difference. See South Africa game last summer for example.

Hell of a gamble? Not for me. Ford can play similarly to Danny pretty easily I think.

[twitchy]

International level players like slade, joseph, watson etc should all be able to play around cips and thrive. Of course they would need to train together but not like it's some insurmountable task.

[Puja]

Danny wouldn’t have to rule the roost, only have an input, to make a difference. See South Africa game last summer for example.

Ironically, I would use the South Africa game to illustrate my point. The first two tests with Ford, England's backline were tearing South Africa apart at whim and it was the forwards that gave the game away. The last test, with Cipriani, against a heavily rotated South African side, we looked turgid and unlikely to score, with even the much hyped "Cipriani moment of magic" being a fairly routine kick through that was well overhit and would've gone dead if not for a lucky bounce and May being a freak of nature.

Was the rubbish attack 100% Cipriani's fault? Of course not - lots of other things put the handbrake on, not least poor ball and Faz acting the attack roadblock at 12. And it is unfair to expect anyone to just be dropped into a set system. However, it was definitely more an argument for my point than yours.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Atkinson at 12 and we’re odds on favourites in Japan. There’d be no Batman without Robin, no Eric without Ernie.

[Puja]

Atkinson at 12 and we’re odds on favourites in Japan. There’d be no Batman without Robin, no Eric without Ernie.

Mells - The IRB relies heavily on the income generated by the RWC in order to fund the growth of the game. We can't deprive them of that by just picking Atkinson and basically obviating the entire competition. We have to give the other teams a chance.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

Atkinson at 12 and we’re odds on favourites in Japan. There’d be no Batman without Robin, no Eric without Ernie.

Mells - The IRB relies heavily on the income generated by the RWC in order to fund the growth of the game. We can't deprive them of that by just picking Atkinson and basically obviating the entire competition. We have to give the other teams a chance.

Puja

Good point. Well made.

[Stom]

International level players like slade, joseph, watson etc should all be able to play around cips and thrive. Of course they would need to train together but not like it's some insurmountable task.

It's not the players, it's the system. What happens if Cipriani gets injured and we need to use Ford or Farrell in his system?

Actually, ok, Ford could do it.

Fine, pick Cips at 10, but have Ford at 22. After the WC, I'd go for Ford and Smith anyway.

[Oakboy]

International level players like slade, joseph, watson etc should all be able to play around cips and thrive. Of course they would need to train together but not like it's some insurmountable task.

It's not the players, it's the system. What happens if Cipriani gets injured and we need to use Ford or Farrell in his system?

Actually, ok, Ford could do it.

Fine, pick Cips at 10, but have Ford at 22. After the WC, I'd go for Ford and Smith anyway.

Stom, pick a head coach who announced that when appointed and we'd all be happy.

[Gloskarlos]

Danny wouldn’t have to rule the roost, only have an input, to make a difference. See South Africa game last summer for example.

Ironically, I would use the South Africa game to illustrate my point. The first two tests with Ford, England's backline were tearing South Africa apart at whim and it was the forwards that gave the game away. The last test, with Cipriani, against a heavily rotated South African side, we looked turgid and unlikely to score, with even the much hyped "Cipriani moment of magic" being a fairly routine kick through that was well overhit and would've gone dead if not for a lucky bounce and May being a freak of nature.

Was the rubbish attack 100% Cipriani's fault? Of course not - lots of other things put the handbrake on, not least poor ball and Faz acting the attack roadblock at 12. And it is unfair to expect anyone to just be dropped into a set system. However, it was definitely more an argument for my point than yours.t

Puja

Really? A few minutes to go, systems or no systems, over hit or perfectly weighted for a speedster, the look in Faz’s eyes was telling, ‘Danny what the hell have you done you’ve thrown it all awa..... oh no, wait, we scored’. Leave that play to Faz and crap systems and we lose. I’ll go 50/50 with you, you can argue the point both ways, but DEFINITELY more for your point? Nah.

[Oakboy]

Danny wouldn’t have to rule the roost, only have an input, to make a difference. See South Africa game last summer for example.

Ironically, I would use the South Africa game to illustrate my point. The first two tests with Ford, England's backline were tearing South Africa apart at whim and it was the forwards that gave the game away. The last test, with Cipriani, against a heavily rotated South African side, we looked turgid and unlikely to score, with even the much hyped "Cipriani moment of magic" being a fairly routine kick through that was well overhit and would've gone dead if not for a lucky bounce and May being a freak of nature.

Was the rubbish attack 100% Cipriani's fault? Of course not - lots of other things put the handbrake on, not least poor ball and Faz acting the attack roadblock at 12. And it is unfair to expect anyone to just be dropped into a set system. However, it was definitely more an argument for my point than yours.t

Puja

Really? A few minutes to go, systems or no systems, over hit or perfectly weighted for a speedster, the look in Faz’s eyes was telling, ‘Danny what the hell have you done you’ve thrown it all awa..... oh no, wait, we scored’. Leave that play to Faz and crap systems and we lose. I’ll go 50/50 with you, you can argue the point both ways, but DEFINITELY more for your point? Nah.

Debating the level/effects of Cipriani's performance in a one-off game is pretty much irrelevant BECAUSE Farrell was at 12. The two could not possibly gel. That the game-winning action was Cipriani's is hardly surprising but nor is the fact that the game was not an attacking try-fest. Cause and effect etc.

[Puja]

Ironically, I would use the South Africa game to illustrate my point. The first two tests with Ford, England's backline were tearing South Africa apart at whim and it was the forwards that gave the game away. The last test, with Cipriani, against a heavily rotated South African side, we looked turgid and unlikely to score, with even the much hyped "Cipriani moment of magic" being a fairly routine kick through that was well overhit and would've gone dead if not for a lucky bounce and May being a freak of nature.

Was the rubbish attack 100% Cipriani's fault? Of course not - lots of other things put the handbrake on, not least poor ball and Faz acting the attack roadblock at 12. And it is unfair to expect anyone to just be dropped into a set system. However, it was definitely more an argument for my point than yours.t

Puja

Really? A few minutes to go, systems or no systems, over hit or perfectly weighted for a speedster, the look in Faz’s eyes was telling, ‘Danny what the hell have you done you’ve thrown it all awa..... oh no, wait, we scored’. Leave that play to Faz and crap systems and we lose. I’ll go 50/50 with you, you can argue the point both ways, but DEFINITELY more for your point? Nah.

Debating the level/effects of Cipriani's performance in a one-off game is pretty much irrelevant BECAUSE Farrell was at 12. The two could not possibly gel. That the game-winning action was Cipriani's is hardly surprising but nor is the fact that the game was not an attacking try-fest. Cause and effect etc.

Ford managed.

Puja

[Puja]

Danny wouldn’t have to rule the roost, only have an input, to make a difference. See South Africa game last summer for example.

Ironically, I would use the South Africa game to illustrate my point. The first two tests with Ford, England's backline were tearing South Africa apart at whim and it was the forwards that gave the game away. The last test, with Cipriani, against a heavily rotated South African side, we looked turgid and unlikely to score, with even the much hyped "Cipriani moment of magic" being a fairly routine kick through that was well overhit and would've gone dead if not for a lucky bounce and May being a freak of nature.

Was the rubbish attack 100% Cipriani's fault? Of course not - lots of other things put the handbrake on, not least poor ball and Faz acting the attack roadblock at 12. And it is unfair to expect anyone to just be dropped into a set system. However, it was definitely more an argument for my point than yours.t

Puja

Really? A few minutes to go, systems or no systems, over hit or perfectly weighted for a speedster, the look in Faz’s eyes was telling, ‘Danny what the hell have you done you’ve thrown it all awa..... oh no, wait, we scored’. Leave that play to Faz and crap systems and we lose. I’ll go 50/50 with you, you can argue the point both ways, but DEFINITELY more for your point? Nah.

It's definitely not perfectly weighted - there was an acre of space to put the kick into where May would've scored, so it never had to be pinpoint, but it relies on the last bounce of the ball going straight up rather than forward to not have gone over the dead ball line and even then May only just gets to it before it left the field of play.

That kick actually perfectly sums up what annoys me about Cipriani. It's a well spotted kick and led to a try, which is really good (if poorly executed and a bit lucky as above), but it's treated by the media, punditry and a large percentage of fans as a moment of magic that no-one else could possibly achieved, despite the fact that a cross-field kick is something that even Farrell's shown the capacity to do*. Meanwhile, Ford's led England's backline to 7 tries in 2 games, against a non-rotated opposition, and that's just glossed over.

Puja


*In fact, this try is practically identical - it comes from a box kick that England tap back with the defence in disarray, and Farrell kicks through for May to score. It's not just something he can do, it's something he has done.