RugbyRebels

CVC trying to get 13 teams into the prem?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... boola_feed

"two-legged play-off between the last-placed Premiership club and the winners of the Championship."

So the problem that having play-offs end of season gave the champ team no time to prepare has been forgotten.


"CVC believe that increased stability in the top flight would make the league more commercially viable as they seek to exploit growth."

Personally I agree with them and think 5 year ring fence with financial backing of the champ is the way to go.

Spun this off into its own thread cause otherwise we'll inevitably end up with two discussions when someone does start a new thread about it {/Mod}

I'm reluctantly coming round to this point of view. I don't want the Prem to expand - if anything I want it to contract - but the current situation of 12+1 just isn't tenable. If we're not going to bother to develop the Championship into a genuine second tier, there is no point in dropping one team down each year to dick the rest for a season.

And, no, I'm not just saying that because Leicester are looking like relegation bait next season.

Tigersman wrote:"two-legged play-off between the last-placed Premiership club and the winners of the Championship."

So the problem that having play-offs end of season gave the champ team no time to prepare has been forgotten.

Not a problem - it'll be a foregone conclusion anyway, so there'll be no need to prepare.

Puja

Seems the only viable option.....sadly. As Puja says, it’s not as if it’s anything other than a foregone conclusion as to who will be promoted. Even if someone does spring a surprise it has LW written all over it or a failure to meet msc.

Give the Champ clubs some £££££ for the next five years, the current parachute payment plus a little sugar looks about right, and then review. Those that are sensible and have invested in facilities and built crowds can have a chance of joining the club. Those that splurged it on SH journey men and vanity projects can reflect on their mistakes.

I guess I shouldnstart scouring French rugby for a team to support. Looks like ringfencing incoming regardless of any form of logic of coherent thought.

Theoretically, I've always felt the relegated team should have the right to a play-off with the upcoming promoted team. The argument against it is financial in that any promoted team has to recruit hard in the closed season to be competitive at the top level. That begs the question about reality because the team that wins the second tier is not the same one that survives in the top tier. Effectively, no team can come up and survive without an injection of capital.

The cynic in me believes that opposing ring-fencing is just as artificial as defending it. Unless you have at least half a dozen teams genuinely competing for the chance to go up (in terms of players, stadium and finance), promotion/relegation is just a political excuse-fest. RU does not have the crowd-attracting popularity for two top tiers and we might as well accept it.

Oakboy wrote:Theoretically, I've always felt the relegated team should have the right to a play-off with the upcoming promoted team. The argument against it is financial in that any promoted team has to recruit hard in the closed season to be competitive at the top level. That begs the question about reality because the team that wins the second tier is not the same one that survives in the top tier. Effectively, no team can come up and survive without an injection of capital.

The cynic in me believes that opposing ring-fencing is just as artificial as defending it. Unless you have at least half a dozen teams genuinely competing for the chance to go up (in terms of players, stadium and finance), promotion/relegation is just a political excuse-fest. RU does not have the crowd-attracting popularity for two top tiers and we might as well accept it.

The thing is, it could, quite easily. It'd more than possible to have a functional professional tier drawing 4-8k crowds at the likes of Leeds, Cornish Pirates, Bedford, Doncaster, Ealing, London Irish, Newcastle and Worcester/Leicester. If there was a domestic cup during international windows, adequate funding and marketing, you could easily have a viable league. However, the 13 shareholders in the Prem have no interest in becoming 18 shareholders in what could be a larger pie of Premiership and Championship, so it's not likely to happen.

Puja

Puja wrote:
The thing is, it could, quite easily. It'd more than possible to have a functional professional tier drawing 4-8k crowds at the likes of Leeds, Cornish Pirates, Bedford, Doncaster, Ealing, London Irish, Newcastle and Worcester/Leicester. If there was a domestic cup during international windows, adequate funding and marketing, you could easily have a viable league. However, the 13 shareholders in the Prem have no interest in becoming 18 shareholders in what could be a larger pie of Premiership and Championship, so it's not likely to happen.

Puja

Exactly "we've never tried X, but have done our best to prevent it" really doesn't I really mean that X is impossible

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Theoretically, I've always felt the relegated team should have the right to a play-off with the upcoming promoted team. The argument against it is financial in that any promoted team has to recruit hard in the closed season to be competitive at the top level. That begs the question about reality because the team that wins the second tier is not the same one that survives in the top tier. Effectively, no team can come up and survive without an injection of capital.

The cynic in me believes that opposing ring-fencing is just as artificial as defending it. Unless you have at least half a dozen teams genuinely competing for the chance to go up (in terms of players, stadium and finance), promotion/relegation is just a political excuse-fest. RU does not have the crowd-attracting popularity for two top tiers and we might as well accept it.

The thing is, it could, quite easily. It'd more than possible to have a functional professional tier drawing 4-8k crowds at the likes of Leeds, Cornish Pirates, Bedford, Doncaster, Ealing, London Irish, Newcastle and Worcester/Leicester. If there was a domestic cup during international windows, adequate funding and marketing, you could easily have a viable league. However, the 13 shareholders in the Prem have no interest in becoming 18 shareholders in what could be a larger pie of Premiership and Championship, so it's not likely to happen.

Puja

Ahem.....Cov.
We get 2k plus at the moment.

Yes wasps elephant in room.

richy678 wrote:

Puja wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Theoretically, I've always felt the relegated team should have the right to a play-off with the upcoming promoted team. The argument against it is financial in that any promoted team has to recruit hard in the closed season to be competitive at the top level. That begs the question about reality because the team that wins the second tier is not the same one that survives in the top tier. Effectively, no team can come up and survive without an injection of capital.

The cynic in me believes that opposing ring-fencing is just as artificial as defending it. Unless you have at least half a dozen teams genuinely competing for the chance to go up (in terms of players, stadium and finance), promotion/relegation is just a political excuse-fest. RU does not have the crowd-attracting popularity for two top tiers and we might as well accept it.

The thing is, it could, quite easily. It'd more than possible to have a functional professional tier drawing 4-8k crowds at the likes of Leeds, Cornish Pirates, Bedford, Doncaster, Ealing, London Irish, Newcastle and Worcester/Leicester. If there was a domestic cup during international windows, adequate funding and marketing, you could easily have a viable league. However, the 13 shareholders in the Prem have no interest in becoming 18 shareholders in what could be a larger pie of Premiership and Championship, so it's not likely to happen.

Puja

Ahem.....Cov.
We get 2k plus at the moment.

Yes wasps elephant in room.

Fair, although that is a fairly big elephant to deal with. Could you feasibly get more than you currently get with them looming over your shoulder?

Puja

The big problem is how saturated pro rugby is in England, especially around Midlands and South West

How many teams are genuinely in a position to, or if given time can be in a position to be competitive in the Prem? 16?

Has conferences ever been looked at? I was sceptical about the PRO14 conferences and still am to a degree due to some issues but those aren't necessarily with the conferences but the make up of the teams. Edinburgh and Glasgow play each other 3 times for example.

I doubt it could work but say the top 4 in the Championship came up with no relegation, using only the maps on Wiki (forgive my English geography) you could split into a west/north and east/south conference. Giving:

W/N: Jersey, Exeter, Bath, Bristol, Gloucs, Worcester, Sale, and Newcastle
E/S: Wasps, Leicester, Bedford, Northamption, Quins, Ealing, London Irish, and Sarries.

Play home and away within your conference and split 4 home and 4 away with the opposite conference. That reduces the number of regular seasons by 2 games.

Ring fence for 4 years and retender for applications.

There arent 16 Prem standard teams at present and that isnt likely to change any time soon. Frankly some of the Champ teams dont want promotion and most aren't in a position financially to undertake it. Several cannot satisfy the ground requirements and most have pitiful average attendances (Ealing just over 800 in season 17/18 for example)
Right now we have 13 teams who can sustain Prem rugby. That wont change next season and, unless the Champ gets a real financial injection, wont happen in the medium term either.
Sure, Ealing have got some money behind them, Coventry are ambitious and Pirates have grand plans but that is balanced by Jersey who have zero capacity for growth, Yorkshire who dont have any money and Hartpury, who are overjoyed just to be in the division.
I've long thought that ringfencing was the right thing to do until the Champ is competitive.
Right now its 13 Prem level teams and one gets to play in the Champ when the music stops and they are left without a seat. They then win the Champ at a canter and the next fall guy gets their turn. And repeat.....

If it's rinse and repeat going down a season it's hardly causing much problem. Leave it at 12 and save the hassle of the extra games

fivepointer wrote:There arent 16 Prem standard teams at present and that isnt likely to change any time soon. Frankly some of the Champ teams dont want promotion and most aren't in a position financially to undertake it. Several cannot satisfy the ground requirements and most have pitiful average attendances (Ealing just over 800 in season 17/18 for example)
Right now we have 13 teams who can sustain Prem rugby. That wont change next season and, unless the Champ gets a real financial injection, wont happen in the medium term either.
Sure, Ealing have got some money behind them, Coventry are ambitious and Pirates have grand plans but that is balanced by Jersey who have zero capacity for growth, Yorkshire who dont have any money and Hartpury, who are overjoyed just to be in the division.
I've long thought that ringfencing was the right thing to do until the Champ is competitive.
Right now its 13 Prem level teams and one gets to play in the Champ when the music stops and they are left without a seat. They then win the Champ at a canter and the next fall guy gets their turn. And repeat.....

You have a point on the standard of the teams below the parachute team.
Ealing were noticeably a step up from most teams and they were also a way off Irish.
Cov finished 8th first season up so mission accomplished, but also mugged Bedford and did the double on Jersey who were 3rd and 4th respectively.
We're definitely gonna hit a second season syndrome if we don't recruit a bigger pack and defend more professionally.

Bedford in 3rd only won 4 more games than Cov in 8th - noticeable how important bonus points are in a stronger league.

I am clearly dead against ring fencing, but its absolutely clear that a non parachuted team, if promoted to the premiership, would probably have to just buy a new team.....which doesn't somehow feel the same.

Puja wrote:

richy678 wrote:

Puja wrote:
The thing is, it could, quite easily. It'd more than possible to have a functional professional tier drawing 4-8k crowds at the likes of Leeds, Cornish Pirates, Bedford, Doncaster, Ealing, London Irish, Newcastle and Worcester/Leicester. If there was a domestic cup during international windows, adequate funding and marketing, you could easily have a viable league. However, the 13 shareholders in the Prem have no interest in becoming 18 shareholders in what could be a larger pie of Premiership and Championship, so it's not likely to happen.

Puja

Ahem.....Cov.
We get 2k plus at the moment.

Yes wasps elephant in room.

Fair, although that is a fairly big elephant to deal with. Could you feasibly get more than you currently get with them looming over your shoulder?

Puja

It's going to have to be addressed. Covs ground is officially rated as 4k capacity, but it looks ok with the 2k plus we've been getting.
There is room to develop, but its a city centre ground so traffic would be awful with premiership crowds.

There is potentially a very decent latent supporter base for cov. Traditionally they were Warwickshires side (Rugby and Nuns accepted) so towns like Leamington, Warwick, Kenilworth and even Stratford would have looked towards Cov.

I know many rugby people from warks who became Tigers fans when cov fell from grace and the likes of Garforth, Backy and Balding were up there.

Worcester and even Saints were possibilities for warks based rugby fans as well.

As Ive already typed - weve got to guard against second season syndrome, recruit a bigger championship pack and defend without losing concentration next year.

richy678 wrote:

fivepointer wrote:There arent 16 Prem standard teams at present and that isnt likely to change any time soon. Frankly some of the Champ teams dont want promotion and most aren't in a position financially to undertake it. Several cannot satisfy the ground requirements and most have pitiful average attendances (Ealing just over 800 in season 17/18 for example)
Right now we have 13 teams who can sustain Prem rugby. That wont change next season and, unless the Champ gets a real financial injection, wont happen in the medium term either.
Sure, Ealing have got some money behind them, Coventry are ambitious and Pirates have grand plans but that is balanced by Jersey who have zero capacity for growth, Yorkshire who dont have any money and Hartpury, who are overjoyed just to be in the division.
I've long thought that ringfencing was the right thing to do until the Champ is competitive.
Right now its 13 Prem level teams and one gets to play in the Champ when the music stops and they are left without a seat. They then win the Champ at a canter and the next fall guy gets their turn. And repeat.....

You have a point on the standard of the teams below the parachute team.
Ealing were noticeably a step up from most teams and they were also a way off Irish.
Cov finished 8th first season up so mission accomplished, but also mugged Bedford and did the double on Jersey who were 3rd and 4th respectively.
We're definitely gonna hit a second season syndrome if we don't recruit a bigger pack and defend more professionally.

Bedford in 3rd only won 4 more games than Cov in 8th - noticeable how important bonus points are in a stronger league.

I am clearly dead against ring fencing, but its absolutely clear that a non parachuted team, if promoted to the premiership, would probably have to just buy a new team.....which doesn't somehow feel the same.

It’s true. Bedford ‘only’ won 18% more games than Cov and were mugged by gaining a losing bonus point against them away from home.

There is no team in the Champ even close to being a sustainable Prem team.
Ealing have a average crowd of 1000, if you round up. Bedford have a 6k stadium, 3k of which is standing on grass. Jersey lurch from one financial crisis to another. Cornish Pirates might eventually get a stadium of 10k but it’s not theirs and it’s in a city of 19k, if you round up. Yorkshire Carnegie are going part time and had a crowd of 147 against Bedford in the, admittedly pointless, Champ Cup, a good 30% of which were Bedford fans. Nottingham have to compete against two football clubs and an international cricket ground, and play on a flood plain with one demountable stand. Coventry might be a goer if it weren’t for Wasps. London Scottish don’t own their ground as they share it with Richmond who have just been relegated after punching above their semi-pro weight. Doncaster have a decent ground and the ability to meet MSC but, well, it’s Doncaster. Hartpury play on a field. Ampthill have just been promoted but also play on a field, with a spinney between the pitch and the clubhouse/changing rooms. They have plans to build a stadium on the A1 but have a population of 13k, plus a few surrounding villages, to build a crowd from, in competition with Bedford.

Give Bedford a few million (I’ll win the euromillions one day) and they could do an Exeter. Doncaster have the infrastructure but doesn’t strike me as a town ready to embrace rugby. Ealing obviously have the money but are in the crowded London market, with an established Prem team all of six-ish miles away. Nottingham could be a goer but would need someone willing to lose millions.

I'd've thought Wasps 'just' need to merge with Cov. Become Cov Wasps and a blue and white change strip and jobs a good'un. It's clear their fans were ok with relocation, and presumably if the right symbolic gestures were made many cov supporters would swallow their pride for top flight rugby....

Mr Mwenda wrote:I'd've thought Wasps 'just' need to merge with Cov. Become Cov Wasps and a blue and white change strip and jobs a good'un. It's clear their fans were ok with relocation, and presumably if the right symbolic gestures were made many cov supporters would swallow their pride for top flight rugby....

Beford fans didn't swallow there pride when a bullish cov - probably around 15 - 20 years ago now - were suggesting buying Beford out for their prem spot.....

The trouble with the Cov/Warks Wasps idea is that traditional sports fans in cov harbour a sizeable resentment towards Wasps about the situation with the Ricoh and Cov City football club.

I also have to admitt that I know quite a few Warwickshire rugby people that were happy to adopt Wasps as they didnt want to associate with the general rough chavvy image of Coventry and maybe were too young or just unaware of Covs heritage.

Mellsblue wrote:

richy678 wrote:

fivepointer wrote:There arent 16 Prem standard teams at present and that isnt likely to change any time soon. Frankly some of the Champ teams dont want promotion and most aren't in a position financially to undertake it. Several cannot satisfy the ground requirements and most have pitiful average attendances (Ealing just over 800 in season 17/18 for example)
Right now we have 13 teams who can sustain Prem rugby. That wont change next season and, unless the Champ gets a real financial injection, wont happen in the medium term either.
Sure, Ealing have got some money behind them, Coventry are ambitious and Pirates have grand plans but that is balanced by Jersey who have zero capacity for growth, Yorkshire who dont have any money and Hartpury, who are overjoyed just to be in the division.
I've long thought that ringfencing was the right thing to do until the Champ is competitive.
Right now its 13 Prem level teams and one gets to play in the Champ when the music stops and they are left without a seat. They then win the Champ at a canter and the next fall guy gets their turn. And repeat.....

You have a point on the standard of the teams below the parachute team.
Ealing were noticeably a step up from most teams and they were also a way off Irish.
Cov finished 8th first season up so mission accomplished, but also mugged Bedford and did the double on Jersey who were 3rd and 4th respectively.
We're definitely gonna hit a second season syndrome if we don't recruit a bigger pack and defend more professionally.

Bedford in 3rd only won 4 more games than Cov in 8th - noticeable how important bonus points are in a stronger league.

I am clearly dead against ring fencing, but its absolutely clear that a non parachuted team, if promoted to the premiership, would probably have to just buy a new team.....which doesn't somehow feel the same.

It’s true. Bedford ‘only’ won 18% more games than Cov and were mugged by gaining a losing bonus point against them away from home.

There is no team in the Champ even close to being a sustainable Prem team.
Ealing have a average crowd of 1000, if you round up. Bedford have a 6k stadium, 3k of which is standing on grass. Jersey lurch from one financial crisis to another. Cornish Pirates might eventually get a stadium of 10k but it’s not theirs and it’s in a city of 19k, if you round up. Yorkshire Carnegie are going part time and had a crowd of 147 against Bedford in the, admittedly pointless, Champ Cup, a good 30% of which were Bedford fans. Nottingham have to compete against two football clubs and an international cricket ground, and play on a flood plain with one demountable stand. Coventry might be a goer if it weren’t for Wasps. London Scottish don’t own their ground as they share it with Richmond who have just been relegated after punching above their semi-pro weight. Doncaster have a decent ground and the ability to meet MSC but, well, it’s Doncaster. Hartpury play on a field. Ampthill have just been promoted but also play on a field, with a spinney between the pitch and the clubhouse/changing rooms. They have plans to build a stadium on the A1 but have a population of 13k, plus a few surrounding villages, to build a crowd from, in competition with Bedford.

Give Bedford a few million (I’ll win the euromillions one day) and they could do an Exeter. Doncaster have the infrastructure but doesn’t strike me as a town ready to embrace rugby. Ealing obviously have the money but are in the crowded London market, with an established Prem team all of six-ish miles away. Nottingham could be a goer but would need someone willing to lose millions.

I will acknowledge your 18%, however in the light of being a promoted team....I will stick with mugged simply on getting the W.
New boys - emotion etc this time...wont be good enough for us next season unless we recruit.

richy678 wrote:

Mellsblue wrote:

richy678 wrote:
You have a point on the standard of the teams below the parachute team.
Ealing were noticeably a step up from most teams and they were also a way off Irish.
Cov finished 8th first season up so mission accomplished, but also mugged Bedford and did the double on Jersey who were 3rd and 4th respectively.
We're definitely gonna hit a second season syndrome if we don't recruit a bigger pack and defend more professionally.

Bedford in 3rd only won 4 more games than Cov in 8th - noticeable how important bonus points are in a stronger league.

I am clearly dead against ring fencing, but its absolutely clear that a non parachuted team, if promoted to the premiership, would probably have to just buy a new team.....which doesn't somehow feel the same.

It’s true. Bedford ‘only’ won 18% more games than Cov and were mugged by gaining a losing bonus point against them away from home.

There is no team in the Champ even close to being a sustainable Prem team.
Ealing have a average crowd of 1000, if you round up. Bedford have a 6k stadium, 3k of which is standing on grass. Jersey lurch from one financial crisis to another. Cornish Pirates might eventually get a stadium of 10k but it’s not theirs and it’s in a city of 19k, if you round up. Yorkshire Carnegie are going part time and had a crowd of 147 against Bedford in the, admittedly pointless, Champ Cup, a good 30% of which were Bedford fans. Nottingham have to compete against two football clubs and an international cricket ground, and play on a flood plain with one demountable stand. Coventry might be a goer if it weren’t for Wasps. London Scottish don’t own their ground as they share it with Richmond who have just been relegated after punching above their semi-pro weight. Doncaster have a decent ground and the ability to meet MSC but, well, it’s Doncaster. Hartpury play on a field. Ampthill have just been promoted but also play on a field, with a spinney between the pitch and the clubhouse/changing rooms. They have plans to build a stadium on the A1 but have a population of 13k, plus a few surrounding villages, to build a crowd from, in competition with Bedford.

Give Bedford a few million (I’ll win the euromillions one day) and they could do an Exeter. Doncaster have the infrastructure but doesn’t strike me as a town ready to embrace rugby. Ealing obviously have the money but are in the crowded London market, with an established Prem team all of six-ish miles away. Nottingham could be a goer but would need someone willing to lose millions.

I will acknowledge your 18%, however in the light of being a promoted team....I will stick with mugged simply on getting the W.
New boys - emotion etc this time...wont be good enough for us next season unless we recruit.

What you did was mug us of our IP Head Coach and capt both groomed at the Goldington Rd finishing school.

Being serious, if you have your own ground and 2k or more for average crowd you’ll be fine consolidating yourself in the Champ.