Game of Thrones (spoilers)

[Stom]

So I don't understand something...

The last season was crap. This one is abysmal. Yet there's one theme: every characters development is stunted. So why speed up? Why not double the number of episodes, actually develop characters and give fans the kind of endings they want?

I mean... HBO gets more people watching for longer. The showrunners don't get shitted on quite as much. Everyone wins...

Unless, in reality, that pair of douches are actually Michael Bay in disguise...

I mean, that episode was like a track of prog rock where we have a 10 second intro followed by 8 minutes of pointless guitar solo performed by a drunk one armed pensioner.

Just need to vent. 10 years we've all been watching and this is what we get. Rushed shit, biblical done to death references and the economic output of Chad spent on pointless vizFXs.

Fuck you.

[Stom]

Sorry, I just needed to vent...

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I don't really get the complaints, from you or that I've seen elesewhere.

The characters are behaving in character.

The logistics have been glossed over a bit, but it really wasn't necessary to have 5 episodes of someone journeying from one place to another this season because there's basically 1 set of events rather than half a dozen.

Biblical references overdone? I haven't spotted one and I'm very au fait with the bible.

It is what it's always been. A romp. The weird thing for me is that people have somehow forgotten that.

[Puja]

I don't really get the complaints, from you or that I've seen elesewhere.

The characters are behaving in character.

The logistics have been glossed over a bit, but it really wasn't necessary to have 5 episodes of someone journeying from one place to another this season because there's basically 1 set of events rather than half a dozen.

Biblical references overdone? I haven't spotted one and I'm very au fait with the bible.

It is what it's always been. A romp. The weird thing for me is that people have somehow forgotten that.

What has annoyed me is that there has been an awfully heavy hand of plot leaning on the scales. The death of the dragon last week required it to be sniped, three times in three shots, from a ridiculous distance. I read an article where someone did the maths and in order for it to reach and cover the distance, the projectiles had to be supersonic as well as inhumanly aimed to hit a small target without any wind effect from a scorpion mounted on a floating platform. Not to mention that the fleet managed to hide from an aerial force.

But you can quite easily say that's nitpicking and I'll buy that - call it a fun romp and let's not worry about the physical plausibility of deadeye scorpions firing over a mile when it's a world where there are dragons and zombies. Fair enough - I'll buy that.

What you can't then do is have a massive arsenal of the same scorpions fail to hit or even present any threat to a dragon next episode. You can't have it both ways - either the scorpions can kill a dragon because they're that badass, or riding a dragon is such a sure thing that you can charge a hundred of them and dodge all of the bolts without them even posing a slight risk.

The same goes for telling me you've assembled a host of brilliant soldiers, fighters, and experienced warriors, and then organising the Battle for Winterfell in the stupidest way humanly possible. They're either brilliant leaders and fighters or they're fucking imbeciles. You can't have it both ways.

Present me with your world and I will believe in it as long as you obey the same rules or at least somewhere near them. Setting up a threat and then negating it with the power of character armour is Doctor Who levels of storytelling.

Puja

[Puja]

Also the characterisation of Arya has annoyed the piss out of me this season. In the Winterfell episode, she went from badass, to running and sneaking away from the battle while people died outside, to meeting Melisandre whose sage advice was "Have you considered killing the Night King?", and then she's badass again (with added teleportation powers given that it was a plot point that Jon Snow couldn't get across the battlefield to reach Bran (and also why did they leave him with just Theon and redshirts as guard again? Surely that was a job for PCs like Brienne or Jorah?)).

Then she's spent two episodes deliberstely riding towards a warzone because she was determined to kill Cersei, got right into the middle of a massive battle and then decides that she's actually not that invested in revenge after all. Woman, you've spent years turning yourself into a finely honed instrument of revenge, you've just ridden the length of a country and gone into the middle of battle and dragonfire just for this sole purpose and suddenly now you're having an epiphany?! Based just on the Hound saying revenge is bad for you?! Really?!

Puja

[zer0]

So I don't understand something...

The last season was crap. This one is abysmal. Yet there's one theme: every characters development is stunted. So why speed up? Why not double the number of episodes, actually develop characters and give fans the kind of endings they want?

I mean... HBO gets more people watching for longer. The showrunners don't get shitted on quite as much. Everyone wins...

Unless, in reality, that pair of douches are actually Michael Bay in disguise...

HBO wanted them to do more episodes/seasons, as did Martin. But Wingus & Dingus want to f*ck off and heap more misery on Star Wars instead of properly finishing what they started. So it's all being fired through to a conclusion ASAP, with Tyrion smashing down the fourth wall and telling you not to think about it just because.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I don't really get the complaints, from you or that I've seen elesewhere.

The characters are behaving in character.

The logistics have been glossed over a bit, but it really wasn't necessary to have 5 episodes of someone journeying from one place to another this season because there's basically 1 set of events rather than half a dozen.

Biblical references overdone? I haven't spotted one and I'm very au fait with the bible.

It is what it's always been. A romp. The weird thing for me is that people have somehow forgotten that.

What has annoyed me is that there has been an awfully heavy hand of plot leaning on the scales. The death of the dragon last week required it to be sniped, three times in three shots, from a ridiculous distance. I read an article where someone did the maths and in order for it to reach and cover the distance, the projectiles had to be supersonic as well as inhumanly aimed to hit a small target without any wind effect from a scorpion mounted on a floating platform. Not to mention that the fleet managed to hide from an aerial force.

But you can quite easily say that's nitpicking and I'll buy that - call it a fun romp and let's not worry about the physical plausibility of deadeye scorpions firing over a mile when it's a world where there are dragons and zombies. Fair enough - I'll buy that.

What you can't then do is have a massive arsenal of the same scorpions fail to hit or even present any threat to a dragon next episode. You can't have it both ways - either the scorpions can kill a dragon because they're that badass, or riding a dragon is such a sure thing that you can charge a hundred of them and dodge all of the bolts without them even posing a slight risk.

The same goes for telling me you've assembled a host of brilliant soldiers, fighters, and experienced warriors, and then organising the Battle for Winterfell in the stupidest way humanly possible. They're either brilliant leaders and fighters or they're fucking imbeciles. You can't have it both ways.

Present me with your world and I will believe in it as long as you obey the same rules or at least somewhere near them. Setting up a threat and then negating it with the power of character armour is Doctor Who levels of storytelling.

Puja

Er, being attacked by a weapon you don't know exists is quite different from adapting your tactics to the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent. That's just fucking obvious. And I call bullshit on the supersonic calculations given there are fuck all measurements

As for the Battle of Winterfell, they went to the trouble of explaining the plan, or were you not paying attention. Entice the Night King towards Bran by leaving him relatively undefended then kill him with dragonfire. Which is exactly what would have happened if the dragonfire actually worked.

Whatever people's problem is with GoT this series, it isn't that it has suddenly become less plausible than before.

[zer0]

I don't really get the complaints, from you or that I've seen elesewhere.

The characters are behaving in character.

The logistics have been glossed over a bit, but it really wasn't necessary to have 5 episodes of someone journeying from one place to another this season because there's basically 1 set of events rather than half a dozen.

No they haven't. Cersei, for instance, doesn't kill Tyrion and Danny when she has ample opportunity at their parley outside Kings Landing. She absolutely hates Tyrion with a vengeance, and doesn't at ll care about playing by any rules, as evident when she bombed the Sept in a 'genius' move. She shouldn't even be alive after that bombing, but she is, and doesn't seem to suffer from consequences to her actions anymore. That being the case, why would she not just have every archer and scorpion fire on them all, then send out her soldiers to make sure they're all dead? All of her problems would seem to have been over. Danny is dead, along with her last dragon, so there's no real threat to her throne anymore as the North is happy to stay in the North, and no one else seems to care that she's somehow queen. She also gets to kill Tyrion and fulfil a very personal vendetta. Win-win for her. Instead she lets them walk away for some reason after killing Danny's Google Translator. Why? Because it would be all over if she acted in-character, so the plot demands she doesn't.

Some other out of character examples since the books were overtaken or ignored:

• To continue with Cersei, she's suddenly become a political mastermind instead of being the overconfident amateur she is. See her decision to bomb the Sept and not to partake in the Long Night Brief Evening;
• All of the previously politically savvy characters -- Tyrion, Varys and Littlefinger -- became dumb and useless. Varys does f*ck all. Littlefinger thought giving Sansa away to a psychopath was a good idea. Tyrion counsels not to immediately attack Kings Landing with three dragons, and a complete army of Dothraki and Unsullied, after defeating a Lannister army two days march from the city;
• Everyone on team Danny deciding to engage in a pointless siege instead of just killing Cersei via Seal Team Arya or just Bran;
• Davos being totally cool with potentially starving out his home city, despite his deeming starvation to be just about the worst way to die;
• The Iron Bank decides that the narcissistic alcoholic mayor of Kings Landing is a better bet than the contender with three dragons;
• Ramsay Bolton quickly escalates from a rabid psycho into a Mary Sue/Marty Stu;
• The North does not remember, nor care, about Ned's legacy so don't rise up against aforementioned Marty Stu psycho in support of his children;
• Stannis Baratheon burning his daughter;
• The Sand Snakes deciding that the best way to avenge a death in their family is to kill their family;
• As touched on above, just about the entire population of Westeros absolutely not giving a single f*ck that Cersei murdered two prominent lords of the realm (including her uncle), the popular queen and the popular pope.

To name but a few.

What has annoyed me is that there has been an awfully heavy hand of plot leaning on the scales. The death of the dragon last week required it to be sniped, three times in three shots, from a ridiculous distance. I read an article where someone did the maths and in order for it to reach and cover the distance, the projectiles had to be supersonic as well as inhumanly aimed to hit a small target without any wind effect from a scorpion mounted on a floating platform. Not to mention that the fleet managed to hide from an aerial force.

But you can quite easily say that's nitpicking and I'll buy that - call it a fun romp and let's not worry about the physical plausibility of deadeye scorpions firing over a mile when it's a world where there are dragons and zombies. Fair enough - I'll buy that.

What you can't then do is have a massive arsenal of the same scorpions fail to hit or even present any threat to a dragon next episode. You can't have it both ways - either the scorpions can kill a dragon because they're that badass, or riding a dragon is such a sure thing that you can charge a hundred of them and dodge all of the bolts without them even posing a slight risk.

Exactly. There's no consistency in power levels. Between E4 and E5 the scorpions transform from rapid firing, heat-seeking rail guns to slow loading water pistols because that's what the plot demands. Similarly, the dragons go from being scaled up ducks into being weapons of mass destruction because that's what the plot demands. Either they're large ducks facing rapid firing rail guns, and Kings Landing is safe from the sole remaining dragon, or they're weapons of mass destruction who would've annihilated the 10 ships that "ambushed" them and Danny can take Kings Landing at her leisure. As you say, they can't have it both ways.

EDIT: To top it off, one of the numpty show runners claimed that Danny simply forgot about the Iron Fleet. Yep. She forgot about it despite mentioning it earlier in the episode as something they need to account for. Then there's also the question of how Danny's entourage even managed to A) regroup on Dragonstone (an island) without the Iron Fleet immediately dropping the Golden Company on them or B) how they then managed to sail back and forth across Blackwater Bay at their leisure despite their fleet being wiped out and the Bay being held by the Iron Fleet. One would assume they'd have been blockaded by the Iron Fleet and their rapid firing, heat-seeking, anti-dragon rail guns.

The same goes for telling me you've assembled a host of brilliant soldiers, fighters, and experienced warriors, and then organising the Battle for Winterfell in the stupidest way humanly possible. They're either brilliant leaders and fighters or they're fucking imbeciles. You can't have it both ways.

Those tactics -- such as they were -- were infuriatingly dumb. To make it worse, after sending them off on some suicidal madcap charge-of-the-light-brigade style manoeuvre as their opening move, apparently thousands of Dothraki (half?) survived that dumb charge. Somehow. Bitch say what? They dead. They all dead. They deader than the Wallabies post-2002 Bledisloe Cup hopes. But the plot will likely need Danny to have some remaining warriors for the next episode, so there they are. If not, then it's just plain dumb.

[zer0]

Also the characterisation of Arya has annoyed the piss out of me this season. In the Winterfell episode, she went from badass, to running and sneaking away from the battle while people died outside, to meeting Melisandre whose sage advice was "Have you considered killing the Night King?", and then she's badass again (with added teleportation powers given that it was a plot point that Jon Snow couldn't get across the battlefield to reach Bran (and also why did they leave him with just Theon and redshirts as guard again? Surely that was a job for PCs like Brienne or Jorah?)).

Then she's spent two episodes deliberstely riding towards a warzone because she was determined to kill Cersei, got right into the middle of a massive battle and then decides that she's actually not that invested in revenge after all. Woman, you've spent years turning yourself into a finely honed instrument of revenge, you've just ridden the length of a country and gone into the middle of battle and dragonfire just for this sole purpose and suddenly now you're having an epiphany?! Based just on the Hound saying revenge is bad for you?! Really?!

Puja

Yeah, Arya's character has gone off the rails since she left the Faceless men. Indeed, she should've died in Braavos after she marches around town proudly proclaiming her identity. Not as a ruse mind, but she apparently just became retarded and didn't think there'd be any repercussions from an order of face changing assassins. She subsequently, and rightly, gets shanked by the Waif half a dozen times then falls into a sewer. Internal wounds. Blood loss. Infection. Take your pick. She should be dead. But no. She shook it off after a good nights rest and a bowl of soup. She then goes and kills the Waif right after to begin her reign as Westeros' resident psycho murderer.

She was also chosen as the one to kill the Night King just because it'd be the last thing the audience would expect, which is sh*t tier level writing for cheap shocks.

EDIT: Arya's swanning around declaring her identity to all and sundry would also be an example of a character suddenly acting very out of character just so they can produce some contrived drama.

Er, being attacked by a weapon you don't know exists is quite different from adapting your tactics to the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent. That's just fucking obvious. And I call bullshit on the supersonic calculations given there are fuck all measurements

Scorpions have existed in Westeros since Aegon's Conquest ~300 years prior. They're also known to be able to kill dragons because the Dornish got a fluke shot kill through the un-armoured eye of one of his sisters dragons during a protracted guerrilla war. Given it involves her ancestors, it's entirely feasible that Danny would know this. Even if she somehow didn't, she already encountered a Scorpion when Bronn took a few shots at her and wounded Drogon. As for the physics, here's a decent article on it. Some highlights being that:

• The bolts would have an initial velocity of about 2,000 m/s (bullets from modern sniper rifles are around 1,000 m/s)
• Missed shots would have reached a maximum elevation of around 14 miles (22 km) above sea level before (about twice the average cruising altitude for aircraft) beginning their descent
• Missed shots would've travelled about 163 miles (262 km) before crashing back into the sea

This one only deals with the speed and distance, but I've seen one calculation, on YouTube, I think, suggesting that the energy released would've been substantial.

[zer0]

I'll also just go on a special tangent on how they've absolutely ruined Euron Greyjoy.

Book Euron is a fantastically sinister pirate wizard with a god complex. He rolls around with an assortment of magical artefacts, including black Valyrian steel armour and a horn that can bind dragons. His ship plays host to a number of mages and religious figures from across the world, some there willingly, others less so, with the religious figures (including his own brother) frequently used in blood sacrifices for his magic. He's linked to Lovecraftian horrors and probably the Others/White Walkers themselves. There's no Night King in the books and it's speculated that Euron will provide their human face, so to speak.

Based on what's going on in the books so far, and interpreting this season as a very, very broad strokes version of how the books will go down, it's also very likely he will claim at least on of Danny's dragons. But instead of 360 no-scoping a dragon with a rapid firing rail gun on a sunny day from behind a rock, he'll likely do it with his dragon binding horn and some f*ck awesome blood magic in the middle of a magically summoned storm. He might even summon a kraken as well. Who the f*ck knows with this crazy awesome guy. Once he has the dragon, he'd be perfectly placed to bring down the wall for the Others and unleash them on Westeros in a part of his quest for godhood.

On the other hand we have show Euron. He's a dumb pirate whose sole goals seem to be to shag a middle aged woman and kill her brother.

Can anyone seriously say they'd rather have this show version of Euron over the one in the books?

[Stom]

I don't really get the complaints, from you or that I've seen elesewhere.

The characters are behaving in character.

The logistics have been glossed over a bit, but it really wasn't necessary to have 5 episodes of someone journeying from one place to another this season because there's basically 1 set of events rather than half a dozen.

Biblical references overdone? I haven't spotted one and I'm very au fait with the bible.

It is what it's always been. A romp. The weird thing for me is that people have somehow forgotten that.

Before we even start on books v show, let's first think on show v show.

Because seasons 1-5 followed a certain logic. This logic was action/reaction. Everything had a consequence. If characters fucked up, they either died or almost died.

Robb Stark, Ned, Joffrey, Viserys...Dany, even.

But let's think about this episode in particular and start with Varys. Varys us the ultimate player of the game. He has a strong desire but knows that if he fucks up, he dies and cannot fulfil what he sees as his purpose. Hence all those verbal fencing matches with Littlefinger.

So, suddenly, he speaks long and loud about treason... To someone who was raised by Ned Stark... Erm. That really does not fit the character.

Plot armour. Arya should be dead. But we all knew she couldn't die, so following her around as everyone around her died had absolutely no point...

Euron washing up on that exact spot after being engulfed in dragon flame... And then almost beating Jaime with a blade half the size against a trained swordsman... Err... And then Jaime getting up and making his way to Cersei.

We haven't talked about pacing, either. Because there's nothing wrong with Danys descent into madness if it happens over time. Instead it happens so quickly. Because they cut 60 hours of story into less than 10.

The way the power output of the dragons change.

Destroy the wall
Cannot burn through one piece of masonry to kill Jon
Cannot burn down walld
Absolutely obliterate them.

Your point about realism isn't valid.

We don't hold it up to realism from our world, we hold it up to realism in their world. And while seasons 1-5 kept a consistent mechanic in place for action and consequences, that magic requires blood sacrifice, that characters are not immune to danger... This season does away with all of that.

It's just appalling scripting. And that's before we get to the terrible dialogue. Jesus, poor Lena Headley with he lines. Even the actors thought it was crap, ffs.

[Puja]

Er, being attacked by a weapon you don't know exists is quite different from adapting your tactics to the strengths and weaknesses of your opponent. That's just fucking obvious. And I call bullshit on the supersonic calculations given there are fuck all measurements

As for the Battle of Winterfell, they went to the trouble of explaining the plan, or were you not paying attention. Entice the Night King towards Bran by leaving him relatively undefended then kill him with dragonfire. Which is exactly what would have happened if the dragonfire actually worked.

Whatever people's problem is with GoT this series, it isn't that it has suddenly become less plausible than before.

Firstly, she knows scorpions exist. She was attacked by them when Bron fired one, so they're not a new weapon. Zer0 has linked the article which I read - there might not be measurements, but it's very easy to work out distance given the size of various objects in the scene. And while I object to the idea of someone flying high in the air being taken by surprise by a fleet "hiding" behind a small rock, I am willing to buy into sniping moving dragons from a floating platform from a distance away with a ballista because, well, romp. I won't buy that 100 of the same weapons are then powerless against a dragon the next episode because plot demands it.

I did pay attention to the plan, thank you, but I still have so many problems with it that I won't go into them all here. Firstly, relatively undefended does not preclude having named characters guarding him. He's not done a census, it's not like he's going to run away because Sir Jorah's in the guarding group. And given they know he's weak to Valyrian steel, what would be the downside of putting their best fighters around Bran to give them another chance of killing the Night King, especially since the rest of the battle is basically a diversion to lure him put. Instead, they decide to put all their best fighters in the middle of melee where their influence is limited and put some of their weakest fighters at their point of greatest vulnerability because the writers wanted red shirts to die, Theon to look sad and die, and all hope to seem lost before Arya ex Machina.

And aside from that, the way the actual battle was planned was woeful. They're facing an army that a) outnumbers them massively (and which they know can raise any casualties to get even stronger), b) doesn't feel pain or fear and has no capacity to rout. Their advantages are a) fortifications, b) ranged weaponry, c) air superiority, d) the fact that they are picking the battlefield and have several days to prepare. Do they use the last to dig in, prepare more fortifications, arrange to slow the advance with trenches and spikes so that they can whittle down the numbers with archery, trebuchets, dragon fire. Or, do they decide that they're going to man the fuck up and take on the superior numbered swarm of unfearing undead in hand to hand macho combat, using methods like a cavalry charge and shield/pike wall that are only effective when the enemies aren't keen on dying?

Again, you cannot tell me that people are tactical geniuses and then have them send out a smaller army to go mano-a-mano with a horde of zombies.

Puja

[Puja]

iWe haven't talked about pacing, either. Because there's nothing wrong with Danys descent into madness if it happens over time. Instead it happens so quickly. Because they cut 60 hours of story into less than 10.

The reslly annoying thing is that there's a good story there. I completely get Dany's fury about Jon being lauded for the same things she does (although we trod that story with Sansa after the Battle of the Bastards and nothig came of that) and consistantly being promoted despite being more than a little crap himself. And I can totally see a descent into madness working if given more time. She's being pushed to the edge and isolated. But it needed some kind of trigger to be narratively satisfying - if Grey Worm had broken first and started slaughtering the guard, leading to arrows going towards the dragon, then that would've worked.

Instead of more time on this interesting characterisation stuff, we spent a lot of our time on large amounts of war porn watching people burning and dying that, frankly, I fastforwarded past because Arya was never in danger and nothing new was occurring aside from learning war is bad and the makeup department have earned their money.

Puja

[Stom]

iWe haven't talked about pacing, either. Because there's nothing wrong with Danys descent into madness if it happens over time. Instead it happens so quickly. Because they cut 60 hours of story into less than 10.

The reslly annoying thing is that there's a good story there. I completely get Dany's fury about Jon being lauded for the same things she does (although we trod that story with Sansa after the Battle of the Bastards and nothig came of that) and consistantly being promoted despite being more than a little crap himself. And I can totally see a descent into madness working if given more time. She's being pushed to the edge and isolated. But it needed some kind of trigger to be narratively satisfying - if Grey Worm had broken first and started slaughtering the guard, leading to arrows going towards the dragon, then that would've worked.

Instead of more time on this interesting characterisation stuff, we spent a lot of our time on large amounts of war porn watching people burning and dying that, frankly, I fastforwarded past because Arya was never in danger and nothing new was occurring aside from learning war is bad and the makeup department have earned their money.

Puja

Indeed.

There's a number of videos and commentaries on it, but this is another one talking about it in a more conventional way:



In essence, each reunion, each conversation and scene should have a purpose. And that's also true of set pieces (hence my 8-minute guitar solo analogy).

Game of Thrones S1-5 were not "war porn". They were complex building of characters, their complex desires, and how they fit into a world that has strict rules. If GoT had been S8 from the beginning...I wouldn't have bothered. The only reason I watch now is because I wanted to know what happened...which means I have 0 investment in any of the action of the series, the characters, or anything.

My wife often turns to me to ask what is going on in movies, because I just seem to notice details.

She turned to me in this episode and my only answer could possibly be: because the scriptwriters wanted it so.

There was no purpose to the scenes, there was no reason for the scenes, and worst of all, there was no possibility of those scenes happening in a world true to the one in S1-5.

How the fuck did Dany's army get to King's Landing from Dragonstone? They have no ships anymore, they were destroyed by the Iron Fleet. And the Iron Fleet is sitting there blocking the way in...I mean, it just suspends all possible belief. And that is the death of a show that has been based upon strict rules for most of its time.

HBO should have sacked D&D when they refused to make more seasons.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

This.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... -the-bells

[Stom]

This.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radi ... -the-bells

But like most defenders if the show, he's missed the point.

I think most of the "endings" are right. Jaime and Cersei, Dany, Arya, Clegane...

But the storytelling was bad. The dialogue has reached a crescendo of nonsense, the story lines that remain are rushed, all the show is built around set pieces, just like the worst of cinema in the 2000's.

And that's before we get to the main point about suspension of belief. As I said, GoT stood out because it had rigid rules for fantasy. And, as GRRM says, it's low fantasy. But this season has been ott on plot armour, narrative devices to get characters to meet, fast travel, Cersei and he 2 year pregnancy...

It's just really fucking lazy.

[Stom]

And this sums it up well...

https://www.avclub.com/the-mailbag-of-t ... 774885/amp

It's not about the overall storyline, it's about the execution.

[Eugene Wrayburn]

Meh. Most of the whining is reminiscent of "Why do the baddies shoot less well than Bourne/Bond" or "Why do the baddies explain their evil plans/not execute them straight away" They just do. GoT is a different universe with dragons and magic and therefore different laws of physics. It just isn't ever going to be susceptible to the kind of nitpicking people are subjecting it to.

Having said all that it still irritates me that Arya shouted as she jumped to stab the Night King. Everything else I could wear.

[Stom]

Meh. Most of the whining is reminiscent of "Why do the baddies shoot less well than Bourne/Bond" or "Why do the baddies explain their evil plans/not execute them straight away" They just do. GoT is a different universe with dragons and magic and therefore different laws of physics. It just isn't ever going to be susceptible to the kind of nitpicking people are subjecting it to.

Having said all that it still irritates me that Arya shouted as she jumped to stab the Night King. Everything else I could wear.

I agree that much of the whining is ridiculous. But I still think it's been really shoddily done. Rushed, poor scripts, poor direction, atrocious dialogue, all the time and money spent on set pieces.

But I know that the "trend" is for set pieces and action, hence the giant successes of Marvel movies, John Wick, etc.

It's just that GoT wasn't like that...for years. Which set it apart. If it was like this the whole time, I wouldn't have got invested.

Although I will go out and buy the books now (I only rented them from the library back when I read them first).

[Eugene Wrayburn]

I've never been that wowed by the set pieces. However I was very much out on a limb on that whilst they had praise heaped on them for the Battle of the Bastards all the way back to the Blackwater. I don't think the recent battles have been any worse.

Incidentally someone was saying that these people were feted as military geniuses. None of them is. Robb was. Ned might have been. There are good fighters left but no military masterminds. Jon has lost pretty much every battle he's fought and only survived the Battle of the Bastards by Sansa pulling his bollocks out of the fire.

[Stom]

I've never been that wowed by the set pieces. However I was very much out on a limb on that whilst they had praise heaped on them for the Battle of the Bastards all the way back to the Blackwater. I don't think the recent battles have been any worse.

Incidentally someone was saying that these people were feted as military geniuses. None of them is. Robb was. Ned might have been. There are good fighters left but no military masterminds. Jon has lost pretty much every battle he's fought and only survived the Battle of the Bastards by Sansa pulling his bollocks out of the fire.

While no genius, Jaime has shown aptitude previously. He was unbeaten in the field before Robb came along, while his performance in the River lands was also good.

But, no, that's a minor annoyance. More the focus on 84 bloody minutes of battle and 6 of dialogue. And when there is dialogue, it doesn't advance the story, it just kind of tries to force you to remember major character traits... At the expense of any minor traits or development.

I just don't like the mind numbing predictability and I feel unattached to the characters despite being with them for a decade (or more if you count starting on the books).

[Puja]

Meh. Most of the whining is reminiscent of "Why do the baddies shoot less well than Bourne/Bond" or "Why do the baddies explain their evil plans/not execute them straight away" They just do. GoT is a different universe with dragons and magic and therefore different laws of physics. It just isn't ever going to be susceptible to the kind of nitpicking people are subjecting it to.

Having said all that it still irritates me that Arya shouted as she jumped to stab the Night King. Everything else I could wear.

Not really. The baddies shoot worse than Bond because that's the ouevre, but it is at least consistent. You don't get a massive plot point over Bond not going into a situation because there's 10 mooks there and he couldn't possibly overpower them all, only for him to charge into a situation with 30 mooks two scenes later and wipe the floor with them.

My issue isn't nitpicking - it's that it breaks my suspension of disbelief. When you can see the thumbs on the scales, and become aware that a battle or fight is won because plot demands it, not because of a coherent character reason, then it stops being an immersive story and starts becoming a series of tropes. I didn't get any interest from watching the 10-15 minutes of Danerys fire-bombing the city, as it was all pretty much of a muchness and I didn't have any fear that Arya might die because she had an obvious character shield on. Given that this is a show that opened by shockingly having its main character beheaded, that is a sad state of affairs.

I'm glad you're still enjoying it and hope that stays true. However, I'm struggling not to see the scaffolding.

Puja

[Stom]

An interesting take on it and one I agree with in whole.

Would have loved to see it play out that way, but hope I get the chance to see it in my minds eye, reading the books... Here's hoping someone shuts him in his room and takes away all his clothes like Victor Hugo.

[Mellsblue]

Yes, but did Emilia Clarke get her boobs out?

[Donny osmond]

Meh. Most of the whining is reminiscent of "Why do the baddies shoot less well than Bourne/Bond" or "Why do the baddies explain their evil plans/not execute them straight away" They just do. GoT is a different universe with dragons and magic and therefore different laws of physics. It just isn't ever going to be susceptible to the kind of nitpicking people are subjecting it to.

Having said all that it still irritates me that Arya shouted as she jumped to stab the Night King. Everything else I could wear.

Not really. The baddies shoot worse than Bond because that's the ouevre, but it is at least consistent. You don't get a massive plot point over Bond not going into a situation because there's 10 mooks there and he couldn't possibly overpower them all, only for him to charge into a situation with 30 mooks two scenes later and wipe the floor with them.

My issue isn't nitpicking - it's that it breaks my suspension of disbelief. When you can see the thumbs on the scales, and become aware that a battle or fight is won because plot demands it, not because of a coherent character reason, then it stops being an immersive story and starts becoming a series of tropes. I didn't get any interest from watching the 10-15 minutes of Danerys fire-bombing the city, as it was all pretty much of a muchness and I didn't have any fear that Arya might die because she had an obvious character shield on. Given that this is a show that opened by shockingly having its main character beheaded, that is a sad state of affairs.

I'm glad you're still enjoying it and hope that stays true. However, I'm struggling not to see the scaffolding.

Puja

Very much agree. The suspension of disbelief relies entirely on internal consistency, and I'm afraid this series has thrown that to the wind. Still enjoying it, but only really because of the sheer scale of ambition shown by the producers. Have read some interviews with the actors that suggests they arent happy with the direction the final series has taken. Which, given how deep and complex the characters and politics were, and how much thats been abandoned in favour of brain-dead battle scenes, I could fully understand.

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