Players for Scotland's future

[Cameo]

I wanted a separate thread to see where people think we are player wise.

I still think we have a better generation than we have had for a long time but I think I overestimated how good they are. Our squad just seems to have a lot more average players than it seemed a while ago. Where are we strong? Where are we weak but with players coming through? Where are we desperate?

Tight head - Not quite desperate as Nel, Fagerson and Berghan is not too bad a crop but need someone (Nicol?) to come through. Could really do with Fagerson progressing to add some carrying and dynamism to our game.

Hooker - still think our first two choices are very good. Some promising youngsters but a few injuries and we are desperate.

Loosehead - Pretty desperate - big area for improvement. I quite like Dell as a player but his scrummaging (or ref's view of it) is very hit and miss and seems inconsistent in the loose too. Only prospects are project players and others who have not lived up to expectation.

Second row - Another area that has turned from potential strength to a weakness. Not as drastic here as Gray (as shown in second half) can do much more and we have Cummings, Skinner and Carmichael who should be coming through. We need to make that a priority though as it is a clear area of advantage for all the top teams over us.

Back Row - In transition at a bad time but optimistic. To me, the group for the 6N needs to be Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury, Fagerson and Thompson with people like Crosbie pushing

Scrum Half - another one that we have been losing out on. I'd give the spot to Horne with Price covering but behind that relying on Shiel and Divide coming through fast.

Flyhalf - Happy if Russell and Hastings fit, desperate if not. Weir is the only other established pro and no youngsters getting any gametime

Centres - a position of strength turned into a real weakness over the last year but I think this one can be put more on a mixture of injuries and Townsend rather than a lack of talent. There is possibly a question of how well Johnson fits into the system but between him, Jones, Scott, Hutchison, Bennett and Taylor and Harris surely we can build a good partnership with hands, power and pace and even a bit of a kicking game.

Back Three - This is a bit of a mix. Going forward, I think in Hogg, Kinghorn and Graham we have an exciting back three albeit with some defensive frailties. Maitland is a decent option for now too. There is not that much behind them though. The issue in the WC though was that in the year leading up to it we seemed to lose the ability for them to connect and play together.

[Spiffy]

I wanted a separate thread to see where people think we are player wise.

I still think we have a better generation than we have had for a long time but I think I overestimated how good they are. Our squad just seems to have a lot more average players than it seemed a while ago. Where are we strong? Where are we weak but with players coming through? Where are we desperate?

Tight head - Not quite desperate as Nel, Fagerson and Berghan is not too bad a crop but need someone (Nicol?) to come through. Could really do with Fagerson progressing to add some carrying and dynamism to our game.

Hooker - still think our first two choices are very good. Some promising youngsters but a few injuries and we are desperate.

Loosehead - Pretty desperate - big area for improvement. I quite like Dell as a player but his scrummaging (or ref's view of it) is very hit and miss and seems inconsistent in the loose too. Only prospects are project players and others who have not lived up to expectation.

Second row - Another area that has turned from potential strength to a weakness. Not as drastic here as Gray (as shown in second half) can do much more and we have Cummings, Skinner and Carmichael who should be coming through. We need to make that a priority though as it is a clear area of advantage for all the top teams over us.

Back Row - In transition at a bad time but optimistic. To me, the group for the 6N needs to be Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury, Fagerson and Thompson with people like Crosbie pushing

Scrum Half - another one that we have been losing out on. I'd give the spot to Horne with Price covering but behind that relying on Shiel and Divide coming through fast.

Flyhalf - Happy if Russell and Hastings fit, desperate if not. Weir is the only other established pro and no youngsters getting any gametime

Centres - a position of strength turned into a real weakness over the last year but I think this one can be put more on a mixture of injuries and Townsend rather than a lack of talent. There is possibly a question of how well Johnson fits into the system but between him, Jones, Scott, Hutchison, Bennett and Taylor and Harris surely we can build a good partnership with hands, power and pace and even a bit of a kicking game.

Back Three - This is a bit of a mix. Going forward, I think in Hogg, Kinghorn and Graham we have an exciting back three albeit with some defensive frailties. Maitland is a decent option for now too. There is not that much behind them though. The issue in the WC though was that in the year leading up to it we seemed to lose the ability for them to connect and play together.

Scotland have some good centres, but I think Townsend has not got the selection mix right. I do like Peter Horne, a bloke with a rugby brain, a cool head and a good footballer who has probably not got the recognition he should have. He's around 30 now, so not one for the future. Hutchison is one for the future though, and has the X factor. I'd like to see him bedded into the team for an extended run to show his stuff. Have never seen much in Harris. Taylor can be great but had no rugby before this RWC and was a high risk selection that did not pay off.

[General Zod]

You could play Superman in the centres but he ain’t gonna be much good if he doesn’t get the ball.

Not the point of the thread, I know.

I think in the second row, things are a bit better than feared above. CHH, Carmichael, Cummings and Gray will be good, and Skinner can even come in from the back row. I think there’s also another lad at Exeter who was supposed to be in with a shout around the time that Skinner was first picked, but I forget his name.

[Cameo]

Yeah, hopefully Cummings can keep the dynamism he has shown and Carmichael has real pace too. Skinner would have been very useful in this tournament.

I don't know quite how they should go about getting the best out of Gray. It is certainly no lack of effort but I wonder if he should be freed from that first receiver/link role to concentrate on running on to the ball and receiving/giving offloads. He looked so much better in that second half yesterday and does have the skills

[Cameo]

You could play Superman in the centres but he ain’t gonna be much good if he doesn’t get the ball.

Yeah, our centres confuse me in general. With Russell's flat passing you would think they would be flying onto the ball and there are games when Johnson and Jones have. The rest of the time it seems we have to go the whole way round a defence otherwise we don't look like breaking it. I don't know how much is tactics or how much all our best centres blow a bit hot and cold

[laribold]

In terms of our centres, I think we just lack for a bit of grunt tbh. With the creativity of Russell (or even Hastings) at 10 and Hogg able to join from 15 and stand at first receiver I'm just not sure we need a second playmaker. With no viable threat hitting up in the centres, threatening to bust through, it makes our wide play very easy to blitz and shut down.

You look at Aki, Tuilagi, Parkes, even Chris Farrell that level of bosh being able to hit up through the centres just gives these teams an option of asking a question that we don't seem to be able to ask and so we're reliant on going around the outside almost every time.

What's the answer? I've no idea tbh, but we need to be able to ask different questions on the pitch.

[Mikey Brown]

You could play Superman in the centres but he ain’t gonna be much good if he doesn’t get the ball.

Yeah, our centres confuse me in general. With Russell's flat passing you would think they would be flying onto the ball and there are games when Johnson and Jones have. The rest of the time it seems we have to go the whole way round a defence otherwise we don't look like breaking it. I don't know how much is tactics or how much all our best centres blow a bit hot and cold

That’s very well put. From what I’d seen over the last few years Johnson’s USP is taking those short lines at a full sprint and giving defenders no choice but to double mark him.

As to Laribold’s point of not having enough grunt there, we don’t have a Tuilagi style players but Johnson, Scott and Harris are all very capable of hitting the line hard and making dents (all in their own different way) but we seem incapable of using them correctly.

We seem incapable of getting anybody to hit the ball at pace in general. Aside from the defence it’s probably my no.1 issue with this side. Something Laidlaw encapsulates perfectly.

I was reminded yesterday of what I originally liked so much about Zander Fagerson (Matt has it too) in actually relishing the chance to dominate your opposition in a contact situation, whether it’s a carry or tackle or counter-ruck. How did we get guys doing that consistently?

Almost every single Irish player has that quality and combined across a group of 15 it gives them ability to win quick ball and drive a team back in defence without seemingly having done anything special.

[laribold]

We seem incapable of getting anybody to hit the ball at pace in general. Aside from the defence it’s probably my no.1 issue with this side. Something Laidlaw encapsulates perfectly.

I was reminded yesterday of what I originally liked so much about Zander Fagerson (Matt has it too) in actually relishing the chance to dominate your opposition in a contact situation, whether it’s a carry or tackle or counter-ruck. How did we get guys doing that consistently?

Almost every single Irish player has that quality and combined across a group of 15 it gives them ability to win quick ball and drive a team back in defence without seemingly having done anything special.

Having sat through the Leinster-Edinburgh game (well, not all of it. I'm not that much of a glutton for punishment!) and now the Japan-Scotland game, this is the one thing that very obviously struck me. It was the pace and power at which the rucks happened and were cleared out.

In both games it looked devilishly simple and was highly effective.

It's the 'fast rucking game' that is often referenced as having been a particularly Scottish way of playing, but truth is we haven't played that way for many a year. We need to get back to it (or the modern equivalent thereof) and pronto.

EDIT: And to bring the post back on topic, players like the aforementioned Fagersons x2, Cummins, Brown, Ritchie (with the level of dog he brings), Skinner give us the basis of a forward pack able to do this. Gray has shown a glimpse that he can do this when released from the shackles of playing that linking role. One of my biggest disappointments has been Gilchrist tbh. He just looks leaden in so much of open play (and that's without taking into account his falling off tackles).

Japan have surely just given us the blueprint of how it can be done (with all the caveats about prep time and home advantage etc). Let's learn that lesson.

[Mikey Brown]

Yup. We made a breakthrough in our attack a few years back and thought we’d caught up with the rest of the world, but the game very quickly moved on again and we’re now lagging behind wondering why the same old tricks aren’t working.

[Chunks Baws]

I think our backrow is looking pretty tasty going forward. I liked the balance of Ritchie, Maggy and Chib. Ritchie is fast becoming a proper niggly, hard nosed bastard, something we've been missing for years and years.

[Chunks Baws]

Yup. We made a breakthrough in our attack a few years back and thought we’d caught up with the rest of the world, but the game very quickly moved on again and we’re now lagging behind wondering why the same old tricks aren’t working.

It didn't take long for other coaches to work us out. Toony seems to be the only one that hasn't figured that out.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Kebble, Asheman, Fagerson (McInnally, Nicol, Bhatti)
Gray, Cummings (Skinner)
Ritchie, Watson, Bradbury (Fagerson)

Is a pretty handy pack, making some assumptions on development & progression - Zander sorting his temper & scrummaging out, etc.

[General Zod]

A plan to deal with a rush defence would be good at some point, or I fear it’ll just be more of the same.

[Mikey Brown]

So I tried to do a run down here of all the options, as I couldn't really think how many we're likely to lose to retirement or phase out in the next few years. I've just included everyone I could think of, but I wish I hadn't because this took feckin ages. Who knows, might be of some use to you lot though.

Loose-head
Dell (27), Reid (32), Bhatti (26), Allan (28), Sutherland (27) ---> Kebble (27), Schoeman (25)

Hooker
McInally (29), Brown (30), Turner (27), Stewart (24), Cherry (28) ---> Ashman (19)

Tight-head
Nel (33), Fagerson (23), Berghan (29), Rae (24), McCallum (24) ---> Nichol (23),

Lock
J Gray (25), Skinner (24), Cummings (22), Gilchrist (29), R Gray (30), Toolis (27), Swinson (32) ---> Hunter-Hill (22), Carmichael (24)

Backrow
Barclay (32), Bradbury (24), Ritchie (23), Watson (27), Fagerson (21), Thomson (28), Wilson (30), Ashe (26) ---> Crosbie (22)

Scrum-half
Laidlaw (33), Horne (24), Price (26), Pyrgos (30), SHC (26) ---> Dobie (18)

Fly-half
Russell (27), Hastings (23), Weir (28)

Centre
Dunbar (29), Horne (29), Taylor (30), Scott (29), Jones (25), Harris (28), Hutchinson (23), Bennett (26), Grigg (27)---> McDowall (21), Taylor (22), Dean (25), Johnstone (29)

Back Three
Hogg (27), Maitland (31), Seymour (31), Kinghorn (22), Graham (22), Hughes (26), Jones (31) ---> VDM (24)

I was going to edit this down to the group I'd actually continue with (perhaps for the next 2 years or so until hopefully some more players have stepped up) and I've probably missed a load of people anyway.

We knew the areas of concern already, but hopefully there are a few more in the future/promising/uncapped category who can make this look a bit better?

We're assuming Laidlaw/Barclay are retiring. I assume TTRI at age 30 too, if he wasn't interested in a RWC then he is essentially done. Dunbar is knackered. A couple of guys like Brown and Ashe are surely one bad injury away from being done too. I guess we'll try and hold onto Reid/Nel until anybody really steps up in their place, Schoeman won't qualify for a while but seems set on doing so. I think VDM is planning to be considered SQ too? There's at least a dozen players in there I wouldn't realistically ever look at again anyway; Swinson, Wilson, Grigg, Jones etc.

God knows how I thought this would only take me 5 minutes to put together. I should probably do some work now.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

When MB leaves you out of his succession planning

[Cameo]

When MB leaves you out of his succession planning

Haha, the only other one that springs to mind that you have missed is Shiel at 9. There are a few other backrows that will probs end up getting capped but that list is pretty comprehensive.

In a dream world, with everyone fit and fully firing over the next few months, I would love to see a starting 6N team of:

1. Fagerson
2. McInally
3. Sutherland/Bhatti (only not Kebble as this is a dream world and I would love not to have to rely on project players)
4. Gray
5. Cummings (this was hard as Skinner/Carmichael could also come in here - or maybe both)
6. Ritchie
7. Watson
8. Bradbury
9. Horne
10. Russell
11. Graham
12. Scott
13. Jones
14. Kinghorn
15. Hogg

16. Nel (not quite ready to move on)
17. Brown
18. Dell
19. Skinner/Carmichael
20. M Fagerson
21. Price
22. Hastings
23. Bennett

If it had form behind it, I think that team has it all.

Centres is the hardest (ironically as it has been a weakness this tournament) as we have loads of good players but all have issues with form or injuries. Options at 12 of Scott, Johnson, McDowell and 13 of Jones, Hutchison and Bennett are amazing (in theory) with some of them able to double up and people like Taylor available if necessary. Surely we don't need to resort to Horne, Grigg and Harris.

[Scottish Caley Fan]

So I tried to do a run down here of all the options, as I couldn't really think how many we're likely to lose to retirement or phase out in the next few years. I've just included everyone I could think of, but I wish I hadn't because this took feckin ages. Who knows, might be of some use to you lot though.

Loose-head
Dell (27), Reid (32), Bhatti (26), Allan (28), Sutherland (27) ---> Kebble (27), Schoeman (25)

Hooker
McInally (29), Brown (30), Turner (27), Stewart (24), Cherry (28) ---> Ashman (19)

Tight-head
Nel (33), Fagerson (23), Berghan (29), Rae (24), McCallum (24) ---> Nichol (23),

Lock
J Gray (25), Skinner (24), Cummings (22), Gilchrist (29), R Gray (30), Toolis (27), Swinson (32) ---> Hunter-Hill (22), Carmichael (24)

Backrow
Barclay (32), Bradbury (24), Ritchie (23), Watson (27), Fagerson (21), Thomson (28), Wilson (30), Ashe (26) ---> Crosbie (22)

Scrum-half
Laidlaw (33), Horne (24), Price (26), Pyrgos (30), SHC (26) ---> Dobie (18)

Fly-half
Russell (27), Hastings (23), Weir (28)

Centre
Dunbar (29), Horne (29), Taylor (30), Scott (29), Jones (25), Harris (28), Hutchinson (23), Bennett (26), Grigg (27)---> McDowall (21), Taylor (22), Dean (25), Johnstone (29)

Back Three
Hogg (27), Maitland (31), Seymour (31), Kinghorn (22), Graham (22), Hughes (26), Jones (31) ---> VDM (24)

I was going to edit this down to the group I'd actually continue with (perhaps for the next 2 years or so until hopefully some more players have stepped up) and I've probably missed a load of people anyway.

We knew the areas of concern already, but hopefully there are a few more in the future/promising/uncapped category who can make this look a bit better?

We're assuming Laidlaw/Barclay are retiring. I assume TTRI at age 30 too, if he wasn't interested in a RWC then he is essentially done. Dunbar is knackered. A couple of guys like Brown and Ashe are surely one bad injury away from being done too. I guess we'll try and hold onto Reid/Nel until anybody really steps up in their place, Schoeman won't qualify for a while but seems set on doing so. I think VDM is planning to be considered SQ too? There's at least a dozen players in there I wouldn't realistically ever look at again anyway; Swinson, Wilson, Grigg, Jones etc.

God knows how I thought this would only take me 5 minutes to put together. I should probably do some work now.

Can I ask you who all these players that I list below are? They are ones you mentioned here.

Kebble
Schoeman
Cherry
Ashman
Rae
Nichol
Hunter-Hill
Crosbie
Dobie
Dean
Johnstone
VDM

The reason I ask is because I only watch Rugby during the 6N and that does not include the under 20 so do not know anything about the names listed above .

[Cameo]

See below

Kebble - Glasgow loose head from SA qualifies early next year I think
Schoeman - Edinburgh loose head from SA qualifies further in the future
Cherry - Edinburgh back up hooker
Ashman - u20s hooker seen as a prospect with short term loan to Edinburgh at the mo
Rae - Glasgow tight head
Nichol - Young Glasgow tight head
Hunter-Hill - Edinburgh second row on loan to Saracens
Crosbie - Edinburgh flanker getting plenty of ganetime
Dobie - v young Glasgow scrumhalf
Dean - Edinburgh 12
Johnstone - Edinburgh 13
VDM - Edinburgh South African winger qualifies sometime reasonably soon I think

Get yourself a premier sports subscription - it's worth it.

[Big D]

Kebble and VdM qualify for the AIs next year and need to be capped by the turn of the year or have to wait a further 2 years. VdM may go to the 7s to sort that out.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Davidson from Glasgow will be capped for sure one day.

VDW at Edinburgh will potentially end up being third choice fly half.

[Big D]

VdW another that needs capped between qualifying and the end of next year.

[Mikey Brown]

Loose-head
Dell (27), Reid (32), Bhatti (26), Allan (28), Sutherland (27), Marfo (28) ---> Kebble (27), Schoeman (25)

Hooker
McInally (29), Brown (30), Turner (27), Stewart (24), Cherry (28), Kerr (23) ---> Ashman (19)

Tight-head
Nel (33), Fagerson (23), Berghan (29), Rae (24), McCallum (24) ---> Nichol (23)

Lock
J Gray (25), Skinner (24), Cummings (22), Gilchrist (29), R Gray (30), Toolis (27), Swinson (32) ---> Hunter-Hill (22), Carmichael (24), Davidson (22)

Backrow
Barclay (32), Bradbury (24), Ritchie (23), Watson (27), Fagerson (21), Thomson (28), Wilson (30), Ashe (26), Strauss (32), Cowan (LOL) ---> Crosbie (22), Smith (23)

Scrum-half
Laidlaw (33), Horne (24), Price (26), Pyrgos (30), SHC (26) ---> Shiel (21), Dobie (18), Steele (26)

Fly-half
Russell (27), Hastings (23), Weir (28), Lang (24) ---> JVDW (25)

Centre
Johnson (26), Horne (29), Taylor (30), Scott (29), Jones (25), Harris (28), Hutchinson (23), Bennett (26), Dunbar (29), Grigg (27) ---> McDowall (21), Taylor (22), Dean (25), Johnstone (29)

Back Three
Hogg (27), Maitland (31), Seymour (31), Kinghorn (22), Graham (22), Hughes (26), Jones (31), Fife (29) ---> VDM (24), Farndale (25)

[Scottish Caley Fan]

I take it VDM is Van der Merwe and VDW is Van der Walt ? I just looked at the Edinburgh squad and these were the only two that were close to the initials above.

[Cameo]

I take it VDM is Van der Merwe and VDW is Van der Walt ? I just looked at the Edinburgh squad and these were the only two that were close to the initials above.

Yep, VDM is a big quick winger who runs like a robot and scores lots of tries.

VDW is a hard to categorise attacking 10 who has some spark but possibly not the attributes to become a really top class player. A worse but slightly less flaky Phil Godman if you like.

[Stones of granite]

I take it VDM is Van der Merwe and VDW is Van der Walt ? I just looked at the Edinburgh squad and these were the only two that were close to the initials above.

Yep, VDM is a big quick winger who runs like a robot and scores lots of tries.

VDW is a hard to categorise attacking 10 who has some spark but possibly not the attributes to become a really top class player. A worse but slightly less flaky Phil Godman if you like.

sweet mother of god!!!!