RugbyRebels

England need leadership. That much is blatantly obvious.

Where that leadership comes from, I do not know right now. But it has to start with a new captain.

We have a large number of highly talented youngsters appearing, how do we fit them in? Here's what I would do...

Mako, Genge, Obano - we need to develop all action replacements for Mako. Genge has a lot to work on but has the raw talent. Obano has looked very good in patches. Let's bring them on with gametime.
George, LCD, Singleton - this stays the same. A talented bunch.
Sinckler, Stuart, Ford-Robinson - possibly our weakest area. Good to bring on some kids, will happily remember who I've missed when someone points in out.
Itoje, Kruis, Isiekwe, Ewels, J.Hill - Another one where we have a lot of OK players below Itoje.
Curry, Curry, Willis, Underhill, T.Hill, Dombrandt, Mercer, BillyV - These are my pick. There are 101 others to choose from. A real area of depth
Robson, Uren, Maunder - Let's change it up completely
Ford, Smith, Farrell - Get Smith in. Despite what Puja says, he plays flat and I believe he adds a lot to Quins' attack. Let's see how he develops in International rugby
Mallinder, Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph, Marchant - Strength in depth at 13, not so much at 12. I'd want to see if we can clean the yellow off Harry at 12.
May, Daly, Watson, Nowell, Coka, Ibitoye, Thorley - Another area that's becoming quite deep, will be good to see if Thorley and Ibitoye can step up, because even if they don't, we have some depth.

Captaincy should probably go to one of George or Itoje, although I would love to see it go to a non-Sarries player. There isn't anyone, though.

I'd put together a team of:

Mako, George, Sinck
Itoje, Kruis
Curry, Underhill
BillyV
Robson, Ford
May, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
Watson

LCD, Obano, Stuart, Ewels, Dombrandt, Maunder, Farrell, Coka

Going forward would’ve helped today.

Mellsblue wrote:Going forward would’ve helped today.

Nice

"Going forward" uuuuurrrgghhh

Itoje.

I think we need to start with Eddie - do we want to retain his services even if he wants us to? He seems to have got a lot out of the players ultimately but I'm worried he's pissed off a lot of the squad in the last two years and managed to keep them motivated for the duration of the WC, but that the goodwill could fade away now the WC's finished.

Beasties wrote:I think we need to start with Eddie - do we want to retain his services even if he wants us to? He seems to have got a lot out of the players ultimately but I'm worried he's pissed off a lot of the squad in the last two years and managed to keep them motivated for the duration of the WC, but that the goodwill could fade away now the WC's finished.

We’ll have to pay him off he he doesn’t want to leave. Break clause was only if he failed to get us to the semis.

Beasties wrote:I think we need to start with Eddie - do we want to retain his services even if he wants us to? He seems to have got a lot out of the players ultimately but I'm worried he's pissed off a lot of the squad in the last two years and managed to keep them motivated for the duration of the WC, but that the goodwill could fade away now the WC's finished.

He's not finished his job, whether he thinks he has or not.

The question is whether we WANT him to finish it.

I would want to add Mitchell to the scrum half pool as well.

I don't think we need to overreact too much to today. Yes SA are a more powerful/physical side, but I'd expect us to front up better even if we lose next time we play them, emotionally we didn't look right today, just as NZ didn't look right a week after they dusted Ireland.

I'd also wonder physically how much the semi-final took out of the team, yes SA played a day later but they mostly had to deal with stiff necks from trying to track the ball in flight whereas we had a much more physical game. Which maybe says we should have gone lighter on the training front this week, but maybe that makes no difference

A shame we never found a role for Launchbury who's a big player for us in the scrum and maul, instead we had Lawes who did his best Nick Easter impression giving away a soft early penalty to set the tone.

What does concern me is our age profile is typically 1-2 years too old to be confident a lot of the current players can make the next WC, and the next point of concern is how do we start to transition, and then how to we transition with another sodding jamboree event that so many players will target?

Jesus, surely we have better tightheads to choose from than JFR for England? Painter and Hill are both better than him for a start. In my very bias Saints eyes I'd also be keeping an eye on Ribbans and Furbank

What are the age grade tight heads like (thinking in 4 years time)?

Digby wrote:I don't think we need to overreact too much to today.

Yup. Today was just one of those days. We just needed to turn up, we didn't. Shit happens. Unfortunate that it was today.

Some points on going forward:

More powerful locks than Ewels needed as back up to current four - need to start developing bigger ones with enforcer edge.

Need a decent scrum half and fullback

Need a top class alternative 8 option - somebody a bit faster and more athletic than Billy - yet powerful enough to carry in the tight and off the base.If they can jump in the line outs that would be a bonus.

Switch Underhill to 6 and Curry to 7 - also make use of Clifford and Simmonds for some matches.

Joel Kpoku should be in his prime at the next WC.

Beasties wrote:

Digby wrote:I don't think we need to overreact too much to today.

Yup. Today was just one of those days. We just needed to turn up, we didn't. Shit happens. Unfortunate that it was today.

Well you could have done it last week if you had a shred of decency.

I reckon it's important for England not to overreact to today's game. This is still a team packed full of young athletic players, many of whom will improve over the next four years. That goal line stand against Argentina was really inpressive. It's also arguable that Curry and Underhill had an impact because they were brought into what was, otherwise, a fairly stable pack. England have a vast pool of talented youngsters and the best way to get the most out of them is to make it hard to break into the team, unlike the other home nations that have less competition and so have to rely on cohesion to make up the difference.

An upgrade at scrum half will make a difference but realistically there are very few top quality scrummies out there.

If you move on from Jones, who takes over that is better?

switchskier wrote: If you move on from Jones, who takes over that is better?

Loads of good stuff about Mitchell coming out of the camp. Boyd has really impressed at Saints.

switchskier wrote:
If you move on from Jones, who takes over that is better?

You could try Gatland. What couldn’t he do with your player resources.

Jones's teams seem to consistently fail to turn up for crunch matches. Something is seriously wrong for that to happen, surely?

A new head coach has a good base to work from. One who could get it right on big days moves us up a level. More inspiration, less obstinacy perhaps?

With COS taking on a senior role at the RFU I think we're going to be sorted behind the scenes, so a HC who can get the extra few % out of the senior team is what's needed.

Was last week a "big game"?

Agreed. Today was gutting, but on the whole, we should be pretty happy with the tournament.

World Cups typically lead to quite a lot of turnover and the 2020 6 Nations is going to be interesting with Ireland, Wales and France having new coaches and key players retiring and Scotland rebuilding after a group stage exit (Italy will still be also-rans). We won’t really have the same amount of upheaval and we should be targeting a Grand Slam to get straight back on the horse.

Marler will likely retire (again) and I suspect Cole will too. Other than that, only Youngs, Lawes and Wilson are 30 or older.

Youngs really needs to F off. He’s been at best mediocre for what feels like forever and was particularly woeful today. I’m fine to keep Lawes and Wilson around the squad but transitioning to younger players.

For now I’d go with the following group:

1. M. Vunipola / Genge / Obano
2. George / Cowan-Dickie / Singleton
3. Sinckler / Williams* / Stuart / Heyes
4. Itoje / Lawes / Isiekwe / J. Hill
5. Kruis / Launchbury / Ewels / Kpoku
6. Wilson / Willis / T. Hill / Ludlam
7. T. Curry / B. Curry / Underhill / Earl
8. B. Vunipola / Mercer / S. Simmonds / Dombrandt
9. Spencer / Robson / Mitchell / Randall
10. Ford / Smith / J. Simmonds / Grayson
11. May / Cokanasiga / Thorley / Ibitoye
12. Farrell / Tompkins / Devoto
13. Tuilagi / Joseph / Slade / Marchant
14. Nowell / Daly
15. Watson / Furbank / Malins

*Not really up to it IMO, but Stuart and Heyes aren’t ready and Hill hasn’t shown any real form for ages. If Brookes is playing well enough, I’d have him over Williams.

As others have commented, lets not over react.
Getting to the final is welcome and a step up from the last 2 tournaments. Our QF and SF wins were hugely impressive. Our defeat of NZ was as good a performance as we have seen from England for a number of years. We were a bit flat today. Producing a 3rd top drawer effort on the trot was beyond us and that is a real disappointment.
The squad is a good one but with glaring weaknesses at 9,12 and 15. We knew that before the tournament and today simply confirmed that. Elsewhere we have good depth and a smattering of top end players. There is no need for a major clear out, though some new blood will need to come in to replace those who are at the end, or near the end, of the line. Cole and Marler will go, Youngs and Heinz will surely go the same way. Lawes, Wilson and Kruis should stay around for a season or two and there is plenty of life in most of the other backs.
I imagine Jones will stay on for the short term at least. Hatley is off and i'm not sure what the other coaches will be doing.
After the 6N's we travel to Japan for 2 tests, then have the Autumn internationals against NZ, Argentina, Australia and a tier 2 side.
I'd expect some changes along the way leading into 2021 but for next years 6N's i reckon most of this squad will be picked.
Our priority must be to pick 2 or 3 young SH's and give them a chance to develop. Arriving at a WC with Heinz as one of our 2 SH's is a terrible indictment of Jones awful selection in this position.

morepork wrote:

Beasties wrote:

Digby wrote:I don't think we need to overreact too much to today.

Yup. Today was just one of those days. We just needed to turn up, we didn't. Shit happens. Unfortunate that it was today.

Well you could have done it last week if you had a shred of decency.

Last week we were the team using physicality to stop the other side playing, that was decent, this week we were stopped from playing, clearly that is not decent and the IRB must act!

The fact that I entirely forgot Heinz says it all ...

From the RWC squad, I can’t see any value in picking Heinz or Francis. They were there to do a job which they both did adequately, but neither have enough to offer to be picked moving forward. Similarly, McConnochie has a lot to do to justify staying in the squad (he’s another I forgot when I outlined the players I thought we should be looking at!).

At Scrum Half, I’d start Spencer with Robson on the bench. Mitchell and Randall would be the guys I really want to see developed and if Taylor carries on his early season form, he could come from nowhere. Hopefully if Reinach moves on as expected, we’ll have two good English 9s competing at Saints.

At number 8, I’d be tempted to give Billy a rest while we develop a B plan. I know it’s controversial, but I thought we looked better with Wilson at 8 in the 2018 AIs and I’d like to see Simmonds, Mercer or Dombrandt developed as alternatives. Simmonds and Dombrandt arguably have more talent, but if we’re sticking with Curry and Underhill, I think Mercer might be the best fit, given his ability in the lineout.