RugbyRebels

Just trying to prompt some discussion really. It's a shame there isn't a combined home nations board that might make it slightly easier to antagonise the Welsh but thought I'd put it here anyway.

Six Nations 2020 Team of the Tournament (so far):
15 Leigh Halfpenny, 14 Andrew Conway, 13 Manu Tuilagi, 12 Owen Farrell, 11 Jonny May, 10 Romain Ntamack, 9 Antoine Dupont, 8 Gregory Alldritt, 7 Justin Tipuric, 6 Tom Curry, 5 Bernard Le Roux, 4 Maro Itoje, 3 Tadhg Furlong, 2 Ken Owens, 1 Rory Sutherland



I almost feel like I can't remember the 6 nations. Seems like months ago. Is this fair?

Call me predictable but has Farrell done anything that makes him the best 12? I feel like Fickou would have taken that spot easily if they didn't randomly stick him on the wing. Sam Johnson has been very solid all round and made some big interventions in games. Parkes has been... on the pitch I guess. Bashing into stuff. Canna has been doing a fantastic Parkes impression for someone of his size.

Pretty fair summing up here - https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ugby-union

Player of the tournament
France’s scrum-half Antoine Dupont stood out in the first three rounds, profiting from quick possession and turnovers to exploit defences unused to the side’s more disciplined and structured approach under Fabien Galthié and his coaching team. Dupont is not a typical French scrum-half in that he prefers to run and probe rather than box-kick, though in Scotland, against a defence that stopped powerful ball-carriers behind the gainline, he struggled to make an impact, but at 23 can put it down to experience.

Halfpenny? Don't remember him actually doing much. Minnozi, Bouthier have better claims and Hogg has try of the tournament.

Picking Curry at six is weird when he hasn't played a game there. Think Ritchie has been great throughout.

Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Marler
Marchand
Sinckler
Itoje
Le Roux
Ollivon
Curry
Alldritt
Dupont
Ford
Rattez
Fickou
Tuilagi
May
Bouthier

Digby wrote:Marler
Marchand
Sinckler
Itoje
Le Roux
Ollivon
Curry
Alldritt
Dupont
Ford
Rattez
Fickou
Tuilagi
May
Bouthier

Nice.

Digby wrote:Marler
Marchand
Sinckler
Itoje
Le Roux
Ollivon
Curry
Alldritt
Dupont
Ford
Rattez
Fickou
Tuilagi
May
Bouthier

Yeah I could go along with that. Pretty hard to pick TBH as there are several positions where no-one stood out.

Digby wrote:Marler
Marchand
Sinckler
Itoje
Le Roux
Ollivon
Curry
Alldritt
Dupont
Ford
Rattez
Fickou
Tuilagi
May
Bouthier

That is a quality team.

Sutherland at 1 was definitely correct. He’s been immense.

Ford with DuPont and Fickou either side, with a pack like that, would be a joy to watch.

I thought Fickou had finally found his groove after 300 caps and then they stick him on the wing.

Jesus, I'd have Hadleigh "Headhunter" Parkes over Farrell at 12.

Which players have impressed people. Just thinking I've put Rattez in my team of the tournament, though I'm not sure I'm that big a fan, he might just have had a good tournament rather than being especially good. Dupont I was expecting to be good and he delivered, even in the Scotland match under pressure there was some brilliance. Bouthier is the one I had no expectations of and really delivered, whereas for us I knew little to nothing about Furbank and thus had no expectations and I've still no idea what the hype is about, hopefully things just didn't break for Furbank and he's actually quality

I also though Hastings went nicely even before it might have been tricky playing with the mess Russell had left behind before running away.

Banquo wrote:Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Yes. So you could replace Faz with any other 12 (most of whom were marginally better.) He is living on reputation that has little to do with actual ability or consistent form. It is still hard to understand the basis of this reputation. Much of it may have to do with goal kicking, but even that is not outstanding. Commentators tend to rave about the successful kicks but just ignore the misses.

Spiffy wrote:

Banquo wrote:Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Yes. So you could replace Faz with any other 12 (most of whom were marginally better.) He is living on reputation that has little to do with actual ability or consistent form. It is still hard to understand the basis of this reputation. Much of it may have to do with goal kicking, but even that is not outstanding. Commentators tend to rave about the successful kicks but just ignore the misses.

If I were to be positive, he has a fantastic work rate and is physical for a 10. He follows orders and is good at moving a winning pack forward (but that's elementary for any decent 10) and likely works like feck in training. As I've said before he is a paupers Jonny Wilkinson. I don't understand why pundits purr over his basic skills though, and I think he is a very mediocre intl 12, albeit he does a 'job' in the way we play.

Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Pretty sure Greenwood would have got into a world XXII.

Stom wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Pretty sure Greenwood would have got into a world XXII.

He’d get in to mine.

Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.

So, one or two. I wonder why France, NZ and Australia have had a few more. Maybe, youngsters don' t want to play there? Or is it flair being coached out?

Banquo wrote:Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Looking at the tackle stats, Farrell made 42 tackles and missed 12. Of the others at his position, no-one missed more than 5 (Aki). On the other hand, no-one attempted anywhere near as many (Aki - 38, Parkes - 34, Johnson - 34) apart from Canna (50) who was constantly under pressure. Is he a bad tackler or is England defensive structure making him rush up and therefore miss more?

switchskier wrote:

Banquo wrote:Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Looking at the tackle stats, Farrell made 42 tackles and missed 12. Of the others at his position, no-one missed more than 5 (Aki). On the other hand, no-one attempted anywhere near as many (Aki - 38, Parkes - 34, Johnson - 34) apart from Canna (50) who was constantly under pressure. Is he a bad tackler or is England defensive structure making him rush up and therefore miss more?

IMO its both. He's always been tasked with being the rusher up in midfield, but he tends to go high. His scramble defence is very good in fairness, which accounts for high high attempt rate.

switchskier wrote:

Banquo wrote:Bit of a meh team tbh, esp as Faz is at 12, having had a very average 6N yet there isn't another convincing candidate for 12.

Looking at the tackle stats, Farrell made 42 tackles and missed 12. Of the others at his position, no-one missed more than 5 (Aki). On the other hand, no-one attempted anywhere near as many (Aki - 38, Parkes - 34, Johnson - 34) apart from Canna (50) who was constantly under pressure. Is he a bad tackler or is England defensive structure making him rush up and therefore miss more?

The argument is that he rushes up forcing the oppo back towards his pack and that a missed tackle has achieved its objective. It does work most of the time but if it doesn’t, see Eng v NZ 2018, it ain’t pretty.
Also, as Banquo says, he tries to be very dominant which sometimes means he gets bumped off.

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:Have we ever had an IC who would get in a World XV? Carling, Greenwood etc. were pretty decent but . . .

Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.

So, one or two. I wonder why France, NZ and Australia have had a few more. Maybe, youngsters don' t want to play there? Or is it flair being coached out?

...also depends on what you want in an i/c /second 5/8th. You could ask the same about English 9's as well.

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: Greenwood world class. Carling should have been, but never developed fully as a player. imo Catt was too in his relative rare outings there. Jeff Butterfield was world class at 12 and 13 according to my f-in-law who played with him.

So, one or two. I wonder why France, NZ and Australia have had a few more. Maybe, youngsters don' t want to play there? Or is it flair being coached out?

...also depends on what you want in an i/c /second 5/8th. You could ask the same about English 9's as well.

True, but in my limited experience of junior rugby, 9 is one of the most popular positions - a bit like wicketkeeper at cricket. You have far more 1st hand knowledge. Don't kids see SH as the one that's always in the action?

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:
So, one or two. I wonder why France, NZ and Australia have had a few more. Maybe, youngsters don' t want to play there? Or is it flair being coached out?

...also depends on what you want in an i/c /second 5/8th. You could ask the same about English 9's as well.

True, but in my limited experience of junior rugby, 9 is one of the most popular positions - a bit like wicketkeeper at cricket. You have far more 1st hand knowledge. Don't kids see SH as the one that's always in the action?

..I meant why we don't we produce more quality 9's....

Banquo wrote:

Oakboy wrote:

Banquo wrote: ...also depends on what you want in an i/c /second 5/8th. You could ask the same about English 9's as well.

True, but in my limited experience of junior rugby, 9 is one of the most popular positions - a bit like wicketkeeper at cricket. You have far more 1st hand knowledge. Don't kids see SH as the one that's always in the action?

..I meant why we don't we produce more quality 9's....

Ah, we are at cross-purposes. I could understand a lack of quality 9s if kids did not want to play SH - as they may be less keen to play IC perhaps? As kids do want to play SH (?) why then do we produce none?

If kids willingness to play 9 or 12 is not relevant, then what is left? In athletic structure our kids are no worse than those of countries that do produce the goods. Coaching?