Review of uncompleted 6N campaign.

[Scottish Caley Fan]

I know the competition is not complete yet as we still have to play Wales, most likely in late October so, as we don't have a scheduled match until July (though unlikely), I thought I'd get your report card for Scotland from the 4 games played.

*Were there any stand out players during the tournament or one that came of age etc

*Are there any areas that Gregor and his staff will need to work on

*Are there any players that could make the step up from the under 20s within the next couple of years

*Who would you like to see capped, that hasn't already been

Hopefully that keeps you occupied until our next match lol.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

No specific analysis from me (yet) but will acknowledge some huge improvements have been made - much harder to beat, very good defence (for the most part) and a dominant scrum.

We still have no consistency of performance whatsoever. It still fluctuates all over the place and we have way too many game-changing mistakes in our locker - losing possession in the red zone, intercepts, etc.

I still don't really feel like Townsend is the man to take us forward but I am more optimistic now than pre-6N. If he's only just decided post RWC that we need to change tact, I mean it's commendable that he's finally done it but it feels like the rest of his tenure was a complete waste then. If he's been given another RWC cycle and this is all part of a grand strategy - build good foundations in the form of set piece improvements, better attitude & focus, stronger defence then I'd say this is promising. If it's just a short term stop-gap for damage limitation to save his job then not so much.


Areas to work on in the short term - lineout, lineout, lineout, lineout, lineout, lineout. Getting this operating at 90-95% will fix so many of our problems. It'll reduce the error rate, give us more possession & give the team extra confidence to execute the game plan.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep, that seems fair. More consistent as we went on, yes, but still a lot of the same old errors cropping up. Some big steps forward in certain areas though.

Particularly gutted we didn't get the Wales game as that would have been a big moment to show if we could follow up a rare 80 minute performance with another. Wales don't generally have to work that hard to make us crumble, we know it, they know it. If we'd gone out there and won, or at least not looked like little school boys, that would have been very encouraging even though they have their own issues at the moment.

Two decent props throwing their weight around made a hell of a difference. It's hard not to focus on Sutherland but Fagerson really seems to have stepped up. Hookers both do some fantastic things but until the lineout is consistently going right it's hard to judge them overall. Not always easy to tell how much is down to their throwing or all the other elements in the chain.

Second rows solid enough, but again what's up with the lineout? Cummings really coming and making an impact with his carrying, perhaps more free and comfortable to do his thing alongside Gray than anyone else? GG needed a big game and would have been great to see Skinner get some more gametime. Is Gray generally in charge of the lineout?

Ritchie and Watson fantastic. Still feel we're lacking a bit of heft in the collisions around the fringes, but we don't exactly have a Jerome Kaino floating about and Bradbury doesn't look like he's going to get there too quickly. Haining is a big aggressive lump, which on one hand we need, but he is still a lump. Doesn't look fit enough to play 55 minutes at this level even. What happened to Blade Thomson? Fagerson or Du Preez are the only others with the potential blend of aggression/physicality and vision/handling to fill all those gaps, but clearly aren't doing something that GT wants. It's great to have a big solid carrier at 8 in either Bradbury or Haining, but both are limited.

At scrum-half Price hasn't been at his best. There have been some remarkably Laidlaw-esque moments of pondering and hesitation that really make me wonder about the instruction he is getting. Price is good when we want to keep the pace up, and is more suited that Horne to digging the ball out (our presentation overall needs a lot of work) but has been caught at the base when indecisive. Horne has managed to speed things up, but also run down some blind alleys and not really had enough time yet to settle in. Definite improvements to be had here.

Hastings good, has his wild moments too but happy with how he is developing. We're targeting the ball in defence and he needs to stay on his feet if he can, yes, but he really, really need to watch his tackle technique if he wants to consistently stay on the field.

Johnson & Harris a solid 6/10 all round. Johnson has flashes in attack that elevate his game, yet to see if Harris can really do that too. I think we definitely need to get more out of our centres, or they need to be able to bring others in, but I guess it's a solid platform for now. Scott, Hutchinson and Jones all have a USP that could take our attack to another level, but I think their flaws (mostly defensive) are considered too big a risk now.

Bennet however is the one that doesn't really get a mention anymore. I feel he could do a lot of Harris's heavy lifting and defensive work, but has the potential to spark something a bit more. I'm wondering how much influence on selection Tandy has here. GT was veering towards Johnson/Harris in the RWC anyway, but largely because the defence was so porous I imagine.

Wings haven't really been brought in to the game too much. It seems funny to now be focussing so much on a kick chase now Seymour is retired. He would have been very handy here. Maitland has been up and down, largely uninspiring but when he's switched on he's very reliable. Kinghorn just not really getting the ball in his hands enough to do his thing but solid. Graham obviously needed here long term.

Hogg had a wobble or two, maybe he needs that every now and then to kick him back in to gear? It must be odd being so consistently the best player in the team. Very early to tell how the captaincy is working out but I like that he seems humble/rational enough that we often have a forward step up to speak to the ref when it's a more relevant matter for them. McInally/Brown/Gray/GG have a big role to play here too. Watson seemed a bit more vocal than I've noticed him before and Ritchie seems to be one to look out for on the leadership front, as he seems to have the right attitude.

[Mikey Brown]

I'm still not sold on our general attacking ethos but we needed a few more games to really see if we've got something developing there.

[Mikey Brown]

Interesting too to hear Kinghorn referred to, from an outsider's perspective, as a fantastic defensive winger in the Squidge rundown of the France game. There's a few other interesting bits in there, but it's mostly about France and terrible Coronavirus jokes.

[Donny osmond]

Saw someone, not Scottish I think, rate Johnson as the best 12 in the 6N and a Lions starter. Have to say he has been pretty good without being too flashy. Can't think of another B&I 12 who is def better than him.

[septic 9]

Interesting too to hear Kinghorn referred to, from an outsider's perspective, as a fantastic defensive winger in the Squidge rundown of the France game. There's a few other interesting bits in there, but it's mostly about France and terrible Coronavirus jokes.

I've always had the view that Kinghorn was very good going forward, much much quicker than he looks, but defensively suspect in every aspect - tendency to fall off simple tackles, get stood up rather easily and a very worrying habit of a combination lack of concentration and poor positioning sense.

Have to say none of that was apparent this 6N, he was excellent defensively every game.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

Interesting too to hear Kinghorn referred to, from an outsider's perspective, as a fantastic defensive winger in the Squidge rundown of the France game. There's a few other interesting bits in there, but it's mostly about France and terrible Coronavirus jokes.

I've always had the view that Kinghorn was very good going forward, much much quicker than he looks, but defensively suspect in every aspect - tendency to fall off simple tackles, get stood up rather easily and a very worrying habit of a combination lack of concentration and poor positioning sense.

Have to say none of that was apparent this 6N, he was excellent defensively every game.

I can't put my finger on why I don't think Kinghorn has been very good attack wise since getting capped.

I've got a feeling it's just because he doesn't have the relationship Seymour/Maitland/Hogg have developed playing together for club and country over a number of years.

I honestly don't think Hogg/Kinghorn know what the other is going to do at the best of times and realistically Hoggy is almost always going to be involved in our most devastating attacks so if you're not on song with him...

[septic 9]

Interesting too to hear Kinghorn referred to, from an outsider's perspective, as a fantastic defensive winger in the Squidge rundown of the France game. There's a few other interesting bits in there, but it's mostly about France and terrible Coronavirus jokes.

I've always had the view that Kinghorn was very good going forward, much much quicker than he looks, but defensively suspect in every aspect - tendency to fall off simple tackles, get stood up rather easily and a very worrying habit of a combination lack of concentration and poor positioning sense.

Have to say none of that was apparent this 6N, he was excellent defensively every game.

I can't put my finger on why I don't think Kinghorn has been very good attack wise since getting capped.

I've got a feeling it's just because he doesn't have the relationship Seymour/Maitland/Hogg have developed playing together for club and country over a number of years.

I honestly don't think Hogg/Kinghorn know what the other is going to do at the best of times and realistically Hoggy is almost always going to be involved in our most devastating attacks so if you're not on song with him...

fair to say he hasn't been the attacking force for Scotland that he has for Edinburgh, and I'dd add that while my analysis and opinions about him are mainly (but not only) based on his Edinburgh performances, they have mapped across defensively until this 6N.
What you say about the sync with Hogg is true, we have to remember that nearly all of Kinghorn's appearances are as a winger, he plays FB week in week out for Edinburgh. And essentially he is a FB, he'd have been a shoe in starter at 15 for Scotland for the last 3 seasons if we didn't have Hogg. I'm not convinced that as a winger he can ever be a Seymour, he can be a Maitland. and while there are lots of cross over from wing to FB, the FB gets a very different of the game and where the gaps are

What we have seen form both him and Maitland this 6N is a much more aggressive kick chase than either have shown before. Its a very valuable part of our game now, underestimated in terms of pressure on the opposition and can see that as both attack and defence- previously only Seymour chased with any intent

[Scottish Caley Fan]

I was hoping to get more opinions on the question I posted regarding potential promotions from the younger aged groups etc.

I started the same discussion on a Facebook group but, most of them just said the boy Chamberlain that played a blinder for the Under 20s last Friday in the rout of Wales.

It's a question I'd like answered lol as, imho, apart from Duhan Van der Merwe, we should be looking at youngsters who could do a job for the first team, instead of relying on foreigners that are eligible through residency. Now, I'm not saying, completely abolish the rule because I'm sure others could be good additions to our team. As you can probably tell, I'm a huge fan of DVdM lol, I'm counting down the days until he's officially eligible.

[Tobylerone]

, I'm a huge fan of DVdM lol, I'm counting down the days until he's officially eligible.

Thought I read (??) that he had to play for the Sevens Squad to ensure three year qualification...

[septic 9]

, I'm a huge fan of DVdM lol, I'm counting down the days until he's officially eligible.

Thought I read (??) that he had to play for the Sevens Squad to ensure three year qualification...

nah.

3 years residency makes him available to us but doesn't tie him to us - could still be picked for SA.

Once he has done his 3 years he is SQ and if he plays for the 7s (or the main team or A team) that clinches it and binds him to Scotland.

[septic 9]

we should be looking at youngsters who could do a job for the first team, instead of relying on foreigners that are eligible through residency.

very few ever go straight from the U20 side into the national team. What you should be asking is who will progress on to full professional contracts and who (from those already on one) are likely to pin down a first team spot in a pro team somewhere.

Getting guys gigs somewhere, either with Glas/Edin or in England or France is key - do that and the national team will look after itself. Looking to bring lads straight from U20s to national team is daft unless the player is truly exceptional - Hogg, Fagerson *2, Barclay back in the day. We had a lot of decent U20s, at least half a dozen will make pro players, none are obviously in the category of the aforementioned bar maybe Darge, and Cockerill isn't going to give him the opportunities

[Tobylerone]

3 years residency makes him available to us but doesn't tie him to us - could still be picked for SA.

He`s something of a contrast (ha) to the wings that SA employ. So they could still be interested..

[Cameo]

we should be looking at youngsters who could do a job for the first team, instead of relying on foreigners that are eligible through residency.

very few ever go straight from the U20 side into the national team. What you should be asking is who will progress on to full professional contracts and who (from those already on one) are likely to pin down a first team spot in a pro team somewhere.

Getting guys gigs somewhere, either with Glas/Edin or in England or France is key - do that and the national team will look after itself. Looking to bring lads straight from U20s to national team is daft unless the player is truly exceptional - Hogg, Fagerson *2, Barclay back in the day. We had a lot of decent U20s, at least half a dozen will make pro players, none are obviously in the category of the aforementioned bar maybe Darge, and Cockerill isn't going to give him the opportunities

I suppose in a way, you can add Dobie to that (even though he's not been playing u20s).

I hope Chamberlain gets a chance in pro rugby mainly because we have so few 10s. At least two back rows and Ashman (and probably a prop or two) will too. Ollie Smith looks to have a lot of promise too and we could do with back three players. Some others with a decent chance and hopefully Super 6 will help avoid them getting lost in the system

[septic 9]

3 years residency makes him available to us but doesn't tie him to us - could still be picked for SA.

He`s something of a contrast (ha) to the wings that SA employ. So they could still be interested..

he is, TBF he's a it different from anything anyone has these days except the aging Nadolo. As for SA picking him, its possible but while I'm not sure what their current policy is on picking overseas players, I doubt it stretch to first caps. He becomes SQ in June I think, but I suspect the first autumn test is going to be the first chance to cap him - assuming that goes ahead

[septic 9]

suppose in a way, you can add Dobie to that (even though he's not been playing u20s).

of course, as I say few go straight from U20s to full national squad. The prodigious talents either don't play U20s or skip at least a year when they could. I don't see anyone in the recent U20 squad troubling the national team next season. And that isn't a sleight on any of them, its just reality

[septic 9]

I hope Chamberlain gets a chance in pro rugby mainly because we have so few 10s. At least two back rows and Ashman (and probably a prop or two) will too. Ollie Smith looks to have a lot of promise too and we could do with back three players. Some others with a decent chance and hopefully Super 6 will help avoid them getting lost in the system

they all have a chance to make pro grade and more. Some will be luckier than others with competition for the slot they want to fill, and with injury, some will take longer than others and S6 is looking very promising to help.

Its worth a look back at previous "good" U20 seasons to see how many really step up - it ebbs and flows - and for all there was a decent result or 2 i this season, it wasn't a great season- it was so much better than the disaster from last season and at least had half decent coaching this time!
On progressing from U20 to full national team I saw an article the other day which looked at I think it was England's 2014 WC winning U20s. I think it was only 4 or 5 really made the grade in seniors. Some bloke called Itoje was one.

[General Zod]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52169906

Hopefully, they can Zoom it out before the next round of fixtures. Still think Hastings should start in Cardiff if it goes ahead.

[hugh_woatmeigh]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52169906

Hopefully, they can Zoom it out before the next round of fixtures. Still think Hastings should start in Cardiff if it goes ahead.

He has no place to be claiming it was blown out of proportion by anyone other than himself. He is at fault for most of this - including blowing it out of proportion with that moronic interview.

[Cameo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52169906

Hopefully, they can Zoom it out before the next round of fixtures. Still think Hastings should start in Cardiff if it goes ahead.

He has no place to be claiming it was blown out of proportion by anyone other than himself. He is at fault for most of this - including blowing it out of proportion with that moronic interview.

True but still see this as positive. Saying it was blown out of proportion allows everyone to get over some of what he said in that interview. He needs to show it won't happen again and he recognises it was unacceptable but we don't need to replay the whole dispute

[septic 9]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/52169906

Hopefully, they can Zoom it out before the next round of fixtures. Still think Hastings should start in Cardiff if it goes ahead.

He has no place to be claiming it was blown out of proportion by anyone other than himself. He is at fault for most of this - including blowing it out of proportion with that moronic interview.

True but still see this as positive. Saying it was blown out of proportion allows everyone to get over some of what he said in that interview. He needs to show it won't happen again and he recognises it was unacceptable but we don't need to replay the whole dispute

the problem with this is that its all about Finn, and he seems to think he is in control of the situation. He isn't.
It wasn't blown out of proportion, the high media coverage was a certainty as soon as he walked out. His interview to say he has never had a relationship with Townsend bound to inflame and make things worse (as well as being a fiction).
Now he's telling us he is aiming for the tour/AIs. And not a thought that he might not get to start, that he might have to somehow fight for his place back because Hastings did fine. I'm all for some arrogance and swagger in a 10, but a wee bit of self awareness doesn't go amiss and he is showing none.
Not least because he still does not understand that by giving these interviews he is fanning the flames for the journos and idiots like Hamilton to come back for more to sell column inches - that is what they do, what their job is, not to help Finn. Naive or stupid or both.

[Cameo]

Didn't really take that from the article to be honest but understand your point about the risk

[Cameo]

Couldn't be bothered to make a new thread but did anyone see the reply of 1999 five nations game against Wales? It's on the Scottiah Rugby YouTube channel if you are interested.

I was there as a kid but couldn't remember much apart from John Leslie's try. Much more recognisable as modern rugby than some of the other replies but still some pretty big differences. Main thing I had forgotten was how good Scotland's pack was that day. All followed the ball as a pack and pick and go after quick pick and go! Also dominated the lineout which probably won the game alongside some decent kicking from hand.

Rules (or interpretation) then definitely favoured piling bodies into rucks. Much more important to get the ruck or maul going forward.

[septic 9]

Couldn't be bothered to make a new thread but did anyone see the reply of 1999 five nations game against Wales? It's on the Scottiah Rugby YouTube channel if you are interested.

I was there as a kid but couldn't remember much apart from John Leslie's try. Much more recognisable as modern rugby than some of the other replies but still some pretty big differences. Main thing I had forgotten was how good Scotland's pack was that day. All followed the ball as a pack and pick and go after quick pick and go! Also dominated the lineout which probably won the game alongside some decent kicking from hand.

Rules (or interpretation) then definitely favoured piling bodies into rucks. Much more important to get the ruck or maul going forward.

Weir and Murray were both among the best lineout forwards around. We used them well first half to attack Welsh lineout, stopped after Doddie went off, which was in hindsight daft. That allowed them a platform they didn't have, could catch instead of slap it back even if we didn't nick it.
Agree about the pack in the loose. And the ruck was a pile up, very lax on tacklers rolling away. Should have started with Townsend at 10 and Tait at 13. Hodge was only ever solid, maybe better than many rated him but on a fastish pitch he wasn't the best choice, and again hindsight his kicking from hand and tee not his best that day which took away the reason for preferring him to Townsend.

I'm enjoying all the replays