RugbyRebels

It's a sensible call in the long term. He's done the job before on a few occasions, has been part of the squad leadership group and has captained at the domestic level, so what's the problem?

Sam Whitelock has his fans, but he'll be 35 in the deep end of the next World Cup, and there's a chance his best days may be behind him at that point.

Seems like probably a good call but also a bit odd in that he was dropped for their last big game. I'm guessing Foster sees that as a mistake

cashead wrote:It's a sensible call in the long term. He's done the job before on a few occasions, has been part of the squad leadership group and has captained at the domestic level, so what's the problem?

Sam Whitelock has his fans, but he'll be 35 in the deep end of the next World Cup, and there's a chance his best days may be behind him at that point.

Its a question, not a criticism. Just doesn't seem to be guaranteed a place in the team, which imo is a pre-requisite when naming a skipper. As you were.

My first reaction was that as a captain he will be of the ilk of Reuben Thorn, Taine Randell and Todd Blackadder - a good leader but not a dead cert best in his position like a McCaw, Umaga or Read (for most of his time).

So either the captain will be shunted around the back row depending on the other talent available, or decent players will be left out to accommodate him. Ardie Savea will be the first manifestation of this. Ideally, Ardie will suddenly develop a great love of the number 8.

That said, the only other realistic option was Sam Whitelock. He’s a no brainer starting lock at the moment but that might not last to RWC2023.

Isn't Cane quite prone to head injuries?

Lizard wrote:My first reaction was that as a captain he will be of the ilk of Reuben Thorn, Taine Randell and Todd Blackadder - a good leader but not a dead cert best in his position like a McCaw, Umaga or Read (for most of his time).

So either the captain will be shunted around the back row depending on the other talent available, or decent players will be left out to accommodate him. Ardie Savea will be the first manifestation of this. Ideally, Ardie will suddenly develop a great love of the number 8.

Ardie's been playing more and more at 8 anyway, and as a 7, Cane is the best balanced option. Plus he is the best 7 we've got.

Dalton Papali'i is more of a 6.5, than an out-and-out 7, while I'm guessing Blake Gibson is in a similar situation to Brad Shields before he went to play for England - probably good enough to be an All Black, but not enough to shift the incumbents.

Gareth Evans is a fine player, but unfortunately for him, a hair below Cane, and is a 7.5 rather than an out-and-out 7.

James Lentjes is injured and isn't even the best 7 in the Highlanders.

Dillon Hunt is a quality jackal, and will probably end up as the next Matt Todd - the unlucky 3rd guy in a race for 2 spots.

Tom Christie is a great prospect and will probably be the one called in as the long-term successor to Cane and Ardie, IMO.

Fair analysis of the current stocks, I guess. Even if Cane is currently our best 7, he's not of the undroppable quality that Michael Jones, Kronfeld and McCaw provided virtually unbroken from 1987 to 2015. I still expect someone of that ilk to emerge, although it's a little worrying that since McCaw this hasn't happened yet.

Since RWC2015, ourstarting 7s have been:
2016 Wales tour: Cane x3
2016 BC/TRC: Cane x3, Savea x2, Todd x2
2016 NH tour: Cane x3, Todd
2017 Samoa: Cane
2017 Lions: Cane x3
2017 BC/TRC: Cane x5, Savea, Todd
2017 NH tour: Cane x3
2018 France tour: Cane x2, Savea
2018 BC/TRC: Cane x5, Savea x2
2018 NH tour: Savea x3, Papali'i
2019 BC/TRC: Cane x3, Todd
2019 Tonga: Todd
2019 RWC: Cane x4, Todd, Savea

So apart from Papali'i v Japan, we haven't started a new 7 since Ardie Savea in 2016 and he now seems to have a future at 8. Matt Todd is retired. It's time to try some fresh blood in the position but we can't because that means dropping the captain.

Honestly, I think you're overstating the case against Cane, who has been consistently selected for the big matches, and his numbers aren't all that different from McCaw's prior to being named permanent captain.

cashead wrote:Honestly, I think you're overstating the case against Cane, who has been consistently selected for the big matches, and his numbers aren't all that different from McCaw's prior to being named permanent captain.

You might be right. Cane just doesn't stand out to me as a 7 the same way that Kronfeld and McCaw did. Could be I'm becoming a cynical old fart. Could be I don't understand modern loose forward play. Hopefully he will change my mind.

And to compare numbers:

After McCaw retired, Cane started at 7 in 35 of 53 (66%) of NZ's tests before being made captain. (He started at 7 in 13 of the 53 matches when his test career overlapped with McCaw's. In 1 of them Richie wore 8.)

From McCaw's debut (about a year after Kronfeld's last test) he started at 7 in 20 (71%) of 28 tests before being made Captain.

2001 NH/Arg tour: McCaw x3
2002 Ita/Ire/Fij tours: McCaw x2, Holah, Harding
2002 3N: McCaw x4
2002 NH tour: Holah x3
2003 Eng/Wal/Fra tours: McCaw x2, Holah
2003 3N: McCaw x3, Holah
RWC 2003: McCaw x6, Holah

For 10 bonus points and a chocolate fish, name the starting All Blacks 7s used between Kronfeld retiring and McCaw's debut?

Holah, Robertson, Jerry (RIP), Randell... not sure about all of those, I don't think Thorne would have played 7, suspect there's a least one more I've totally forgotten. By way of of apology I'll note Cane probably got the job because he didn't start when you shat the bed against England, just one week before we gloriously shat the bed in the final

Digby wrote:Holah, Robertson, Jerry (RIP), Randell... not sure about all of those, I don't think Thorne would have played 7, suspect there's a least one more I've totally forgotten. By way of of apology I'll note Cane probably got the job because he didn't start when you shat the bed against England, just one week before we gloriously shat the bed in the final

Not a bad effort!

Robertson, Jerry and Randell are correct. Although Holah debuted before McCaw, he did so starting at No. 8 (!) v Samoa, June 2001. He then had 6 games off the bench and didn't get his first start at 7 until 2002 v Italy, when McCaw was unused on the bench!

There's also one more. He started 15 tests in 2000/2001, mostly at 8, and never rode the pine. Any guesses?

North Harbour's own Rob Cribb, obv.

You can't just make up players nobody has ever heard of! The only thing I know about Ron Cribb is he leant his name to a miserably bad MTV series

cashead wrote:North Harbour's own Rob Cribb, obv.

Yep. I had literally forgotten he existed.

Ron Cribb has the same number of test caps as Stan Meads and Grant Batty. One more than Andy Earl and Waka Nathan.

http://stats.allblacks.com/asp/profile.asp?ABID=187