Swing low, should it go?

[Digby]

I don't have any problems with the Swing Low song, tbh it seems more celebratory to me than anything else. Also if we're going to ban some songs the national anthem should be well ahead of Swing Low for my money

[p/d]

Only because it gets right on my tits.

No problems at all with the NA

[fivepointer]

Trevor Phillips -
"So “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot”, celebrating the Underground Railway, written AFTER the Civil War by a freed slave, made popular by the African American Fisk Jubilee Singers, sung at many black funerals and civil rights demonstrations, honoured by Congress, now to be banned. It was a favourite of Paul Robeson, of Louis Armstrong and of Martin Luther King. The last attempt to ban the song was in 1939, in Germany. So black people’s own culture is also now to be cancelled. Please everyone, take a breath before you eliminate black lives from history"

I've always thought it a bit odd that England fans picked up the song in the first place but i'm struggling to see how a ban is justified or remotely sensible.

[Banquo]

Trevor Phillips -
"So “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot”, celebrating the Underground Railway, written AFTER the Civil War by a freed slave, made popular by the African American Fisk Jubilee Singers, sung at many black funerals and civil rights demonstrations, honoured by Congress, now to be banned. It was a favourite of Paul Robeson, of Louis Armstrong and of Martin Luther King. The last attempt to ban the song was in 1939, in Germany. So black people’s own culture is also now to be cancelled. Please everyone, take a breath before you eliminate black lives from history"

I've always thought it a bit odd that England fans picked up the song in the first place but i'm struggling to see how a ban is justified or remotely sensible.

Agreed- and it was a song regularly sung in rugby clubs well before the England crowd picked it up.

[Digby]

I have two main problems with Swing Low, the actions which just seem a bit pantomime to me, and the bigger concern that people need to learn some additional verses, singing the shortened version over and over does annoy a little.

[loudnconfident]

Without Swing Low, what will the England fans sing? We cant get Dean Richards back, and SLSC and Deanooo are the only chants they know.

[p/d]

Without Swing Low, what will the England fans sing? We cant get Dean Richards back, and SLSC and Deanooo are the only chants they know.

Last time I went to Twickenham the only ‘chant’ I had was ‘sit down you f**kers!!’

[Puja]

Trevor Phillips -
"So “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot”, celebrating the Underground Railway, written AFTER the Civil War by a freed slave, made popular by the African American Fisk Jubilee Singers, sung at many black funerals and civil rights demonstrations, honoured by Congress, now to be banned. It was a favourite of Paul Robeson, of Louis Armstrong and of Martin Luther King. The last attempt to ban the song was in 1939, in Germany. So black people’s own culture is also now to be cancelled. Please everyone, take a breath before you eliminate black lives from history"

I've always thought it a bit odd that England fans picked up the song in the first place but i'm struggling to see how a ban is justified or remotely sensible.

Everyone should calm down - it's not being banned from Twickenham. At absolute worst, the RFU are going to end up deciding that they shouldn't monetise it anymore, but I don't even see that happening.

Also, Trevor Phillips can piss off with the invocation of Godwin's Law. Even *if* it was banned from Twickenham (which will not happen and should not happen), it is not banning the song or cancelling black people's culture or anything remotely equivalent to Nazi Germany. A mostly white crowd singing a song written by a former slave lamenting that he can't go home, without knowing what it's about and using it just as a general rugby and drinking song is not "black people's own culture" and, if the incorrect decision was made to stop them from singing it, it wouldn't be "cancelled" as it would still be perfectly available in gospel choirs, recordings, church services, anywhere you liked.

I wonder if corporations having a sudden realisation that not being racist might be profitable too this increased social awareness might percolate down to Exeter Chiefs and their racist branding?

Puja

[francoisfou]

During the 70s and 80s in my playing days, Swing Low resonated from the rafters in every club I had the pleasure of playing against, sung by men of all colour, and a jolly good time was had by all! So if the blazers from HQ want to ban it, I would imagine that it'd be sung even more heartily up and down the country. A couple of years ago I sang it in a bar at the Ernest Wallon ground in Toulouse and was much appreciated by the locals!!

[Digby]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

[Banquo]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

Brave

[Puja]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

I think you're underestimating exactly how racist the caricature of feathered headband, waving tomahawk, facepaint, and war chant is. It's not really a problem of "cultural appropriation" - it's more akin to golliwogs and minstrelry.

Puja

[loudnconfident]

You may enjoy BoJos interview - the interviewer didnt know all the lyrics to SLSC...

[morepork]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

To me, looking in from the outside, the Exeter thing is fucking appalling.

[Digby]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

I think you're underestimating exactly how racist the caricature of feathered headband, waving tomahawk, facepaint, and war chant is. It's not really a problem of "cultural appropriation" - it's more akin to golliwogs and minstrelry.

Puja

I don't in advance take issue with golliwogs or minstrelry. I can't say I much like the use of wog, but other than that absent of context I'm not perturbed by them. I think it unlikely I would see either used in a context I wouldn't think at minimum weird and probably racist, but I suppose you never know.

[Puja]

I still like the Exeter Chiefs crowd singing, makes for a great atmosphere. Seems to depend whether one views it as cultural appropriation or cross-cultural pollination

I think you're underestimating exactly how racist the caricature of feathered headband, waving tomahawk, facepaint, and war chant is. It's not really a problem of "cultural appropriation" - it's more akin to golliwogs and minstrelry.

Puja

I don't in advance take issue with golliwogs or minstrelry. I can't say I much like the use of wog, but other than that absent of context I'm not perturbed by them. I think it unlikely I would see either used in a context I wouldn't think at minimum weird and probably racist, but I suppose you never know.

I really don't think that's your judgement to make.

Puja

[Digby]

I think you're underestimating exactly how racist the caricature of feathered headband, waving tomahawk, facepaint, and war chant is. It's not really a problem of "cultural appropriation" - it's more akin to golliwogs and minstrelry.

Puja

I don't in advance take issue with golliwogs or minstrelry. I can't say I much like the use of wog, but other than that absent of context I'm not perturbed by them. I think it unlikely I would see either used in a context I wouldn't think at minimum weird and probably racist, but I suppose you never know.

I really don't think that's your judgement to make.

Puja

Myself I'd be offended by the notion that others think they're entitled to make my judgement

[Puja]

I don't in advance take issue with golliwogs or minstrelry. I can't say I much like the use of wog, but other than that absent of context I'm not perturbed by them. I think it unlikely I would see either used in a context I wouldn't think at minimum weird and probably racist, but I suppose you never know.

I really don't think that's your judgement to make.

Puja

Myself I'd be offended by the notion that others think they're entitled to make my judgement

Let me rephrase: you can absolutely decide that you want to make your own decision about whether golliwogs and minstrelry are racist, flying in the face of well nigh every black person in the US and UK. That is entirely your prerogative. However, the fact that you've decided it's your place to do that will result in other people judging you.

Puja

[p/d]

I miss the Special K advert of a fit bird in red swimwear

[Digby]

I really don't think that's your judgement to make.

Puja

Myself I'd be offended by the notion that others think they're entitled to make my judgement

Let me rephrase: you can absolutely decide that you want to make your own decision about whether golliwogs and minstrelry are racist, flying in the face of well nigh every black person in the US and UK. That is entirely your prerogative. However, the fact that you've decided it's your place to do that will result in other people judging you.

Puja

Is context not important?

If a young child, say 6 years old, as part of an art class at school assembled their own golliwog would that be racist, would it be racist if the small child was black? By all means explain the kid in some gentle terms why it might update some people, but it doesn't have to represent racism as a given. Granted if you've got KKK members who're stringing golliwogs from branches on trees in their front garden that's disgusting, but again the context is important.

And I know there are people who always think blackface is unacceptable. I'm not in that number, for me the context is again important rather than it being an absolute. Similar I don't assume people aren't free to wear clothing from other cultures, I don't assume you can't play music from other cultures, I don't assume you can't cook foods from other cultures, and all of those will have some people who do have some concerns that the appropriation has at minimum overtones of racism, I'm quite happy to see a white person play Othello and a black person play Hamlet, I don't mind if I see Jamie Oliver cooking a curry on TV rather than Madhur Jaffrey (though like all sane people I'm a big fan of Madhur), and whilst I've no wish to wear a thobe it's more of a style preference than because I'm worried it'd make me racist.

[Puja]

Myself I'd be offended by the notion that others think they're entitled to make my judgement

Let me rephrase: you can absolutely decide that you want to make your own decision about whether golliwogs and minstrelry are racist, flying in the face of well nigh every black person in the US and UK. That is entirely your prerogative. However, the fact that you've decided it's your place to do that will result in other people judging you.

Puja

Is context not important?

If a young child, say 6 years old, as part of an art class at school assembled their own golliwog would that be racist, would it be racist if the small child was black? By all means explain the kid in some gentle terms why it might update some people, but it doesn't have to represent racism as a given.

If a child has drawn a picture which resembles a golliwog because of general 6-year old's art skills, then that's gentle explanation time. If a child has drawn an actual golliwog and, when you ask them what it is, they say "That's a golliwog," then that is racist and you're having to ask questions about where they learned it. I cannot think of a context where an actual golliwog is not racist and, frankly, I don't see why you would want to.

Puja

[Digby]

I don't spend my time thinking about how a golliwog isn't racist, mostly as I don't spend anytime thinking about golliwogs, or racism tbh. But if presented with an example I'd try to take it in context.

[ad_tigger]

I don't spend my time thinking about how a golliwog isn't racist, mostly as I don't spend anytime thinking about golliwogs, or racism tbh. But if presented with an example I'd try to take it in context.

That's very much a key point, you (and I) don't have to think about it, but that is an immense privilege and you should consider that privilege as a massive part of the context when thinking about these things.

[Digby]

I don't spend my time thinking about how a golliwog isn't racist, mostly as I don't spend anytime thinking about golliwogs, or racism tbh. But if presented with an example I'd try to take it in context.

That's very much a key point, you (and I) don't have to think about it, but that is an immense privilege and you should consider that privilege as a massive part of the context when thinking about these things.

I'm not sure if I don't think about it because of privilege, I don't think much about other people much period. Whether that's a stereotypical male not talking/thinking about emotions or even being somewhere on the spectrum of a sociopathic personality I don't know, but I'm also not going to reflect on it much

[Puja]

And on cue: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/e ... ion-459925

Puja