Sportsmanship

[Cameo]

Not prompted by anything in particular but just wondering where you guys draw the line in terms of sportsmanship in rugby. Do you view it differently at school, club and professional levels?

Things I'm thinking about are things like:

- leaving the ball for the other team to fetch (e.g. knock on advantage to blue, blue knock it on and it bounces through to red full back, instead of passing back to blue 9 for the scrum, red 15 puts ball down for blue to fetch)

- rubbing heads of opposition when they make a mistake or give away a penalty

- celebrating penalties (especially scrum penalties) or tries in the face of opponents)

- screaming at opposition hooker to put him/her off at lineout

- chucking away opponents boot if it has come off (saw that penalised in Rugby League last week)

- celebrating try when you know you've dropped it to try and con ref

I know some people see it as getting on top of your opponents and geeing yourself up but I just see it as a bit embarrassing (and worse when it is translated to lower levels). I know pro sports are big business and rugby is a confrontational game but it is harder to support a team when they are being knobs (especially the ones that don't look natural doing it) and less fun to play.

Having said that, I've never been bothered about fans booing a kicker.

[Donny osmond]

Not prompted by anything in particular but just wondering where you guys draw the line in terms of sportsmanship in rugby. Do you view it differently at school, club and professional levels?

Things I'm thinking about are things like:

- leaving the ball for the other team to fetch (e.g. knock on advantage to blue, blue knock it on and it bounces through to red full back, instead of passing back to blue 9 for the scrum, red 15 puts ball down for blue to fetch)

- rubbing heads of opposition when they make a mistake or give away a penalty

- celebrating penalties (especially scrum penalties) or tries in the face of opponents)

- screaming at opposition hooker to put him/her off at lineout

- chucking away opponents boot if it has come off (saw that penalised in Rugby League last week)

- celebrating try when you know you've dropped it to try and con ref

I know some people see it as getting on top of your opponents and geeing yourself up but I just see it as a bit embarrassing (and worse when it is translated to lower levels). I know pro sports are big business and rugby is a confrontational game but it is harder to support a team when they are being knobs (especially the ones that don't look natural doing it) and less fun to play.

Having said that, I've never been bothered about fans booing a kicker.

I don't like any of it. Some of it doesn't bother me so much, like leaving a ball for someone to fetch (as long as you're not throwing it away), or celebrating a try you know you haven't scored.

Some of it, like rubbing oppo heads when they give away a penalty, throwing lost boots away, is deeply shit and runs completely against the values rugby likes to pride itself on, imo.

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[General Zod]

I wouldn’t risk a further penalty by throwzing the ball away, but don’t have a problem with just dropping it where it is so that I/ my team can get back in position. If the opposition scrum half is particularly annoying, I may lob the ball to a lumbering prop in the distance and say “there you go, mate”. Inevitably, he’s not expecting it and you get a few more moments to re-set and the scrum half gets annoyed.

If the opposition does something stupid to give us a penalty and the game is close, I may say, “thanks” or “nice one”, but don’t ever celebrate or rub their head, etc. If it were my career and I was judged on results, I could see me celebrating, but still wouldn’t pat the oppo on the head. Just seems a waste of effort and lets the other guy know that you feel you need an edge to best him.

I don’t scream at the opposition hooker, but I remember Jim Hamilton doing it to great effect v Ireland one year when we beat them at Murrayfield. I could hear him from the second tier of the south stand! Again, if it was my paid job, I would consider it. If it doesn’t work, you do look a bit desperate though.

I don’t celebrate tries, full stop. Always thought that was what footballers did.

Stealing opposition boot/ head guard/ etc - absolutely fair game and funny as fvck.

I remember playing in a tournament where our kicker put the ball on the floor and pointed both hands towards the posts, telling the ref that he was going to tap and go, and run it under the posts over there. He was out of earshot of the opposition who just assumed he was going to kick 3 points and started talking among themselves. He scored and the rest of the match was, er, interesting!

[septic 9]

I'm not one for being an old fuddy duddy and think we can go back to some fantasy period when everyone behaved well - that never was the case. At pro level we don't have the stamping, punching gouging etc that was prevalent in my youth at all levels

So I think celebrating tries is fine. The world has moved on.

Rubbing opposition heads etc, isn't fine. Its simple provocation. Pen every time and a repeat a card. |Down to refs and their bosses, starting with World rugby. A wee reminder that this is not acceptable and they should act and will be backed 100%. Let players and coaches know, ref to remind them start of every game that it will be punished.

[Cameo]

I remember playing in a tournament where our kicker put the ball on the floor and pointed both hands towards the posts, telling the ref that he was going to tap and go, and run it under the posts over there. He was out of earshot of the opposition who just assumed he was going to kick 3 points and started talking among themselves. He scored and the rest of the match was, er, interesting!

I'm actually fine with that. Kind of like a dummy pass.

[Which Tyler]

Celebrating your own team's success is fine
Gloating at opposition errors is shitheel

Placing the ball down is fine.
Retreating first, or throwing it away is shitheel

Misleading the opposition on whatnyour about to do is okay and part of the fun, thoughit kinda depends on how you do it, dummy pass from a scrum, or throw at the lineout is clearly twattish for example. The example given is borderline, just because he used the same non-verbal to ref uses - if he'd out the ball on the ground, knelt next to it, tapped with his foot, picked up and gone, would have been "fair"er

As with most problems in rugby, there are already laws against it "ungentlemanly conduct".

[septic 9]

the dummy from the base of a ruck was outlawed years ago. yet every game now virtually every scrum half feints with ahead and shoulder movement - its a dummy, and should be penalised. First noticed the Northampton Saffer 9 doing it, its everywhere now including ours.

If you indicate a kick at goal now, again that's that, can't change your mind or take a tap. Doesn't matter how you do it, pointing at the posts certainly counts, as does the kicking tee crossing the touchline, whether the captain or kicker wants it! Now this last one is an issue as it means decisions are being taken in live time clearly by the coach, not the team or captain. That is wrong and a wedge that is increasingly being allowed to be inserted into the door by WR

That said, I remember Russell (can't remember if for Glasgow or Scotland) making a very good impression of going to take the kick at goal, bit tapping, going wide and a try results. But he did not point, did not speak to the ref (nor did the captain), it was just laid back Finn wandering to the mark, then swivelling and tapped. That was just fine, heads up rugby from him and half asleep not watching the play, backs turned from the opposition assuming an easy 3 would be taken

[General Zod]

That said, I remember Russell (can't remember if for Glasgow or Scotland) making a very good impression of going to take the kick at goal, bit tapping, going wide and a try results. But he did not point, did not speak to the ref (nor did the captain), it was just laid back Finn wandering to the mark, then swivelling and tapped. That was just fine, heads up rugby from him and half asleep not watching the play, backs turned from the opposition assuming an easy 3 would be taken

It might have been from when we battered Australia. Go to 4:15 in the highlights.

[Puja]

I'm not one for being an old fuddy duddy and think we can go back to some fantasy period when everyone behaved well - that never was the case. At pro level we don't have the stamping, punching gouging etc that was prevalent in my youth at all levels

So I think celebrating tries is fine. The world has moved on.

Rubbing opposition heads etc, isn't fine. Its simple provocation. Pen every time and a repeat a card. |Down to refs and their bosses, starting with World rugby. A wee reminder that this is not acceptable and they should act and will be backed 100%. Let players and coaches know, ref to remind them start of every game that it will be punished.

Absolutely agree on the protocol. Should definitely be done.



Last season, I was playing for our 3rd XV and we were getting dicked on by a local rival (who had more than a few 1st XV players turning out as ringers, but that's another sportsmanship conversation). We'd made a rare foray up to their line and were engaged in a scramble on the 5m line. I thought I saw space down the blind and went for it underneath a couple of players, but realised that I wouldn't quite make the line and so turned to present. The ref, on the other side of the ruck, for some reason awarded a try, until I came up and told him that I hadn't scored. Not only had I not reached the line, but I hadn't even attempted to reach the line. We took the 5m scrum restart and, four phases later, turned over the ball. We lost 60-something-0

Just about everyone in my team applauded my honesty, but thought I was weird for having spoken out and not accepting the try. They pointed out that I'd had two valid tries disallowed by referees who were unsighted and that it was strange to turn down a gift try, especially when it probably was a sympathy award by the ref. I just can't imagine celebrating a try that I knew I hadn't even gone for. If it was marginal, if I wasn't sure, then fine, but a try that I knew categorically I hadn't even tried to score? No way.

Puja

[af73]

While these days I often can't remember what I did yesterday, I do remember reading a story from the archives about an incident in an Ireland/Scotland match possibly involving Tom Keirnan.

A Scottish drop goal attempt form long range struggled over the crossbar but the referee (and everybody else) was so far away they couldn't tell for sure. The Irish full back was the only one close enough who could confirm or otherwise & duly raised his arm to signal the kick was good.

We like to think something similar would happen now (TMO replay not withstanding etc) but I doubt it when we witness the constant badgering of ref's about real or imagined infringements by the other side. Biggar, Sexton we're looking at you now.

[Cameo]

The accepting bad calls is tricky in a way. In cricket, I was always a walker (although I'm sometimes not sure if I have hit it or not) but I get the argument that, if you accept the bad calls that go against you, you are entitled to accept the ones that go in your favour. I am not sure what I would have done in your situation (let alone if the try was vital) but I definitely don't stop and tell the ref if he has missed a blatant knock on or forward pass (unless it's the other side!).

Always a danger of coming over "holier than thou" but I think the basic idea is that it's more fun to play and watch a game where everyone recognises that, though hard, it is a game. We don't all need to hate each other or pretend to as well

[septic 9]

there was an incident in a game, I think it was last season, when the ref was about to go to the TMO to check grounding, but the player told him not to bother as he had dropped the ball first. Smiles all round and disbelief at first from commentators. Again not sure but it might have been Tuilagi.

Now TBF it was going to be very obvious on the replay from the behind the goal camera angle, but I thought it great that the player wasn't going to encourage a total waste of time when he knew the outcome

Perhaps its not all total doom and gloom.

I'd also remind folk that much of what happens is not new. Flankers have been offside and handling on the floor for ever. Only a penalty if caught. Props have illegally scrummed for ever. At least they are not met by a head butt from the opposing hooker these days at pro level

[Cameo]

there was an incident in a game, I think it was last season, when the ref was about to go to the TMO to check grounding, but the player told him not to bother as he had dropped the ball first. Smiles all round and disbelief at first from commentators. Again not sure but it might have been Tuilagi.

Now TBF it was going to be very obvious on the replay from the behind the goal camera angle, but I thought it great that the player wasn't going to encourage a total waste of time when he knew the outcome

Perhaps its not all total doom and gloom.

I'd also remind folk that much of what happens is not new. Flankers have been offside and handling on the floor for ever. Only a penalty if caught. Props have illegally scrummed for ever. At least they are not met by a head butt from the opposing hooker these days at pro level

Yep

Think it was Billy Vunipola. That's one I've never got. If you will clearly be shown to have dropped it, why celebrate like a madman as you'll end up looking like a mug. Fair enough if it is close and it could go either way.