England second row?

[jngf]

At present I see that one England second row berf is pretty well spoken for namely Itoje as an athletic front jumper, who whilst not the biggest of locks , does have some x factor qualities, particularly poaching - Lawes would be a pretty good backup starting lock option and has developed has carrying game to the extent that he is one of the best carrying forwards in the current team (that doesn't justify him starting in backrow though!)

The other lock spot fascinates me, I've always been a bit underwhelmed by Kruis (let alone Ewels whose Kruis lite imo) however I'm hoping a rejuvenated Launchbury can make this spot his own once more, and become our mauling expert,having a similar talismanic effect to Simon Shaw did for the post RWC2003 Team.

I recall in the Burt era, Launchbury was the nearest thing we had to a fetching openside flanker in loose play (though Dan Cole played his part on this ) - now he's in later part of his career and less mobile but he has developed into a big physical prescence,providing decent ballast, something which Eddy's second row choices have conspicously lacked (and relying on Billy to make up the shortfall).

Will be interesting to see how the lock selection plays out and whether any up and coming players like Johny Hill, Moon or Kpoku can stake a claim?

[16th man]

Do we particularly need more bulk from a 2nd lock? ( yes I'm aware that there are posters who won't be able to process this even being a question)

Aside from a horses for courses pick vs the Bokkies , I'd be happy to carry on with the athletic all rounder selections we've been generally going with.

[jngf]

Do we particularly need more bulk from a 2nd lock? ( yes I'm aware that there are posters who won't be able to process this even being a question)

Aside from a horses for courses pick vs the Bokkies , I'd be happy to carry on with the athletic all rounder selections we've been generally going with.

There seems to be an expectation (that has merit imo) that the England No.8 should have bulk (that is biggest factor Billy brings to the party and the reason he gets first dibs on selection when fit ) so I would say there's even more justification to have at least one sizeable lock - Itoje is 6'5" and 18 stone - whilst that's big in everyday terms it's on the smaller end of the scale for test second rows.

[Scrumhead]

Does this mean you no longer want Itoje at 8?

[jngf]

Does this mean you no longer want Itoje at 8?

Still woulld like to see it tried but know full well it's less and less likely because Saracens won't try it (and therefore neither will Eddy for whom the sun still apparently shines out of Saracens' collective crocked backside!)

[Digby]

I'd probably pick Launch, but Lawes is a more than reasonable alternative. Not sure what concerns stop Eddie picking Launch more, probably lineouts and restarts, perhaps some other bits and pieces Eddie doesn't like the detail around

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah Launch is a weird one. For he's got the same absurd ability as Itoje to just be in the right place, but the things like restarts really let him down.

I can't really tell if Eddie wants Itoje to be his lineout nerd now that Kruis is gone, I imagine that's what will make the difference in who pairs with him. Lawes ran the lineout in that period where he and Launch were a pretty good combo themselves. Not that I can remember how well it functioned?

[Scrumhead]

I’d be open to having a proper look at Johnny Hill. He’s always been a good lineout forward but he’s bulked up and improved his carrying. I think he’s at least as good as Ewels.

[Oakboy]

I’d be open to having a proper look at Johnny Hill. He’s always been a good lineout forward but he’s bulked up and improved his carrying. I think he’s at least as good as Ewels.

Agreed.

As ever in these debates, there has to be a balance between what we would really like and what we would like relative to Jones's approach. At present, IMO, the three best locks are Itoje, Launchbury and Lawes in that order so that's the starting pair and benchman. However, I would not be at all surprised if Jones sticks with a 6:2 bench split. If so, it follows that Itoje will start, perhaps with Launchbury (is he as high in Jones's estimation?). There will be a 3rd lock joining Lawes on the bench. If that is the case, I'd certainly try Hill.

Apart from the individual's selection justification, I have a hankering for some Exeter content in the pack. That club is not top of the league by accident. Much as I am a big fan of Lawes, if a rugby judge with no previous knowledge of the individuals had watched yesterday's match and was asked to select a combined eight would any Saints forwards have got in? I'm not really interested in that debate but it's just a thought that if Exeter reserves are that good, maybe their first choice eight is a bit useful.

[FKAS]

Launchbury might have some opportunities now Kruis has gone to Japan he seems to have fallen down the pecking order because his set piece work is pretty poor. Launchbury's strengths are in the loose which is why he's become more of an impact sub. We saw Jones select Ewels a lot this 6N reinforcing the set piece importance as let's face it outside of the tight exchanges Ewels is virtually anonymous.

Hill's form might further hurt Launchbury's opportunities as Hill has come back in great form. Hill has always been good at the set piece and a real awkward bugger in defence particularly at ruck and maul. Now he's scoring tries and carrying more in the loose he should be adding to his caps. He's also three or four years younger than Launchbury who is surprisingly young (only 30) Launchbury really should be bang in his prime but I don't think we've seen the best of him for a while.

Itoje and Lawes are ahead of the rest at the minute because they can mix it in both the set pieces and the loose. Joel Kpoku will be one to watch in the future as he seems to be a lineout leader and a beast in the loose.

[Puja]

I’d be open to having a proper look at Johnny Hill. He’s always been a good lineout forward but he’s bulked up and improved his carrying. I think he’s at least as good as Ewels.

This is an excellent shout. Lineout wonk, good carrier, decent hands, bit of bulk nowadays. You'd have to say, if you were picking just on form, he'd probably be the starter alongside Itoje.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Itoje
Lawes
Launchbury
Ewels

The top 4 pick themselves. I've long favoured an Itoje-Lawes combination and think this is our best pairing.

Ewels is an efficient all rounder. Nothing flash but he does have a high work rate and low error count. You can see why the coaches like him.

On form, Hill is a strong contender but he was sidelined when he toured SA and you wonder if Jones simply doesnt rate him.

Below that you are looking at Isiekwe, Moon, Stooke, Coles and Kpoku. Martin as a left field apprentice isnt the worst shout you could make.

[Banquo]

Itoje
Lawes
Launchbury
Ewels

The top 4 pick themselves. I've long favoured an Itoje-Lawes combination and think this is our best pairing.

Ewels is an efficient all rounder. Nothing flash but he does have a high work rate and low error count. You can see why the coaches like him.

On form, Hill is a strong contender but he was sidelined when he toured SA and you wonder if Jones simply doesnt rate him.

Below that you are looking at Isiekwe, Moon, Stooke, Coles and Kpoku. Martin as a left field apprentice isnt the worst shout you could make.

Big shout on Alex Coles, hope you are right, he's a top lad. Ribbans?

Haven't seen Isiekwe much, is he becoming a more effective 2nd row than when he was capped?

[Mikey Brown]

Strange to remember Isiekwe is capped already. His career has gone oddly sideways since then. Not bad by any means, just doesn’t seem to be getting the rave reviews I expected by now.

Is Hill a lineout nerd then? Because as I said I think that will swing it.

It’s easy to say Launch comes in for Kruis but their strengths are in entirely different parts of the field. You could say that for Lawes too to some extent I guess, but I don’t think EJ views Lawes (who I think will probably start) as a risk in the same way.

But if Hill has the technical chops to take Ewels’s place, for a start, he could suddenly look like an option at 5.

[fivepointer]

Tbh Below Hill - who should be in the England squad but i'm not sure he will be - there are a number of players who could make the step up. Coles is one of them. He's got the size and skill and the time to develop.
Ribbans is someone i've rated for a while. He could be in contention.
Isiekwe played one match at lock for Saints and was outstanding. I'd play him there all the time as for me thats where his future lies.

[twitchy]

There is definitely something that eddie sees in certain players during his crazy training sessions and you either have it or you don't. I think we have tonnes of second rows and would be happy with any of the names mentioned.

[Raggs]

Launch isn't a lineout caller, but he's not a bad lineout forward. He's also, with Kruis gone, likely our best tighthead lock. He definitely has his weaknesses, but he's far from just a "in the loose" lock.

[Scrumhead]

I don’t know whether Hill is a lineout caller or not? I think he may have been for Exeter in the past, but I’m assuming it’s now Gray?

Re. the other options, Isiekwe probably has the most talent/potential but is not helped by the fact that he’s continually swapping between lock and flanker.

Ewels is fine. A good player, just not really an obvious first choice.

Moon is an interesting one. He is a self-professed lineout geek and looks a pretty handy player in the tight and in the loose, but until he’s a nailed on starter for Saints, I don’t think he can really lay claim to an England spot.

Same with Kpoku. Looks good when he plays but seemingly can’t nail a starting berth ahead of Hunter-Hill or Swinson at the moment. At a time when rotation is essential, I’d have expected him to be starting more regularly.

Ribbans definitely has talent as a big carrier and aggressive defender, but he seems to have glass ankles which means he rarely puts together a proper run of games.

Martin looked excellent, but I’m loathe to get too excited based upon one game and I wouldn’t want too much pressure on him too soon. If he continues as he started, he could definitely find a place in the squad by 2023.

[jngf]

Ewels is an efficient all rounder. Nothing flash but he does have a high work rate and low error count. You can see why the coaches like him.

When I see Ewels at test level I get shades of deja vu - to me he seems just like Borthwick or Deacon - a solid and successful club player but demonstrating nothing whatsoever to suggest he's test class. Contrast that to Joel Kpoku who has a massively powerful carrying game which would not look out of place for a No.8 - not that I'm advocating that as MacBeth 2.0 before the derision starts!

Out of further interest, how good a player is Exeter's Tom Price? - according to site his stats are 6'8" and under 16 stone, which would make him handy on basketball court in off season!

[Scrumhead]

Really? I know you think I just pick on you, but what are you basing your assessment of Kpoku’s ‘massively powerful carrying game’ on?

Most of his games for Saracens have been in the Premiership Cup against reserve players and as I mentioned in my post above, Swinson and Hunter-Hill are typically starting ahead of him which means he’s 4th choice for Saracens right now and 5th when you factor in Isiekwe.

He looked good at age grade, but as yet, I haven’t seen anything that notable from him in senior rugby.

[Mikey Brown]

Really? I know you think I just pick on you, but what are you basing your assessment of Kpoku’s ‘massively powerful carrying game’ on?

His silhouette?

[FKAS]

Launch isn't a lineout caller, but he's not a bad lineout forward. He's also, with Kruis gone, likely our best tighthead lock. He definitely has his weaknesses, but he's far from just a "in the loose" lock.

He's primarily a front jumper at the lineout. The issue Launchbury has is that Itoje is our best lock, one of the best in the world so the competition is who will play alongside him. Itoje doesn't call the lineout so we need someone to do that, almost immediately rules Launchbury out. Launchbury to rotate in when Itoje is injured or needs a rest but otherwise I think he might struggle to make the 23. Eddie wants set piece domination which is why I think Ewels is increasingly popular as a lineout caller and he looks to be supporting that Bath front row pretty well. Needs to up his loose game.

Tom Price is 27 and never likely to be more than a squad player. Hill is the lineout caller at Chiefs so for me would be a logical call up.

Joel Kpoku not sure he's an 8, I actually know the lad that played behind him at 8 in the early part of the academy and he's a giant as well, just didn't have the discipline for professional sport. If Kpoku can keep working on his lineout work then he has a great chance to push his way in Jones thinking over the next couple of years. He's only 21 and Isiekwe is still only 22, both are very mobile and Kpoku does look powerful ball in hand.

[Raggs]

Itoje has called the lineout for England I believe, and who does it for Sarries now? I know Kruis used to take priority over him, but I don't think he's incapable.

[Epaminondas Pules]

At present I see that one England second row berf is pretty well spoken for namely Itoje as an athletic front jumper, who whilst not the biggest of locks , does have some x factor qualities, particularly poaching - Lawes would be a pretty good backup starting lock option and has developed has carrying game to the extent that he is one of the best carrying forwards in the current team (that doesn't justify him starting in backrow though!)

The other lock spot fascinates me, I've always been a bit underwhelmed by Kruis (let alone Ewels whose Kruis lite imo) however I'm hoping a rejuvenated Launchbury can make this spot his own once more, and become our mauling expert,having a similar talismanic effect to Simon Shaw did for the post RWC2003 Team.

I recall in the Burt era, Launchbury was the nearest thing we had to a fetching openside flanker in loose play (though Dan Cole played his part on this ) - now he's in later part of his career and less mobile but he has developed into a big physical prescence,providing decent ballast, something which Eddy's second row choices have conspicously lacked (and relying on Billy to make up the shortfall).

Will be interesting to see how the lock selection plays out and whether any up and coming players like Johny Hill, Moon or Kpoku can stake a claim?

Itoje, arguably the best lock in the world has “some X factor”, beyond that point everything else is likely bollocks. And Simon Shaw a talisman? Fuck me!!

Anyway, Itoje and Lawes and then everyone else. Likely Launchbirg and Ewels with Isiekwe, Hill, Ribbans, Cole, Stooke et al not far behind.

Simon Shaw! Fucking hell! And I thought Beefeater had departed this earth!

[BenHK]

Beaumont Jnr was in the EPS before his string of injuries, wonder if he can force himself back in there as another second row and lineout option?

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