3 England back row changes?

[jngf]

Move Underhill to 6
Play Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl at 7
Play Dombrandt at 8

Surely better than 6 Lawes 7 Wilson 8 T Curry ?

[francoisfou]

Move Underhill to 6
Play Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl at 7
Play Dombrandt at 8

Surely better than 6 Lawes 7 Wilson 8 T Curry ?

But not as promising as Jack Nowell at 7, Owen Farrell at 6 and newboy Freddie Steward at 8!

[FKAS]

Move Underhill to 6
Play Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl at 7
Play Dombrandt at 8

Surely better than 6 Lawes 7 Wilson 8 T Curry ?

I'd sooner drop Underhill than Curry. I'd prefer 6. Underhill, 7. Curry, 8. Earl. Would allow a very mobile all action backrow with Willis or Ted Hill on the bench for a more physical impact should we want it. Dombrandt doesn't seem to be involved enough for Eddie's liking. Eddie has the 3 second rule about recovering from involvement and being ready to go again. Dombrandt is more of an every other phase kind of player currently.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Move Underhill to 6
Play Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl at 7
Play Dombrandt at 8

Surely better than 6 Lawes 7 Wilson 8 T Curry ?

Can I have the number of your dealer please?

[16th man]

Once more some sort of surreal commitment to dropping Curry, in the face of him having the best start to an England career by anyone for years, and showing the possibility of stepping up into being one of the pre-eminent backrowers in the world.

[Scrumhead]

Not to mention being in fantastic form ...

For some reason jngf has got a real thing about dropping Curry for no logical reason whatsoever.

He also keeps banging on about this mythical back row of 6. Underhill 7. Wilson 8. Curry that I’m pretty certain never took the field.

[Danno]

Another one of these threads?

[Danno]

Move Underhill to 6
Play Sam Simmonds or Ben Earl at 7
Play Dombrandt at 8

Surely better than 6 Lawes 7 Wilson 8 T Curry ?

But not as promising as Jack Nowell at 7, Owen Farrell at 6 and newboy Freddie Steward at 8!

Itoje's at 8

[Scrumhead]

Another one of these threads?

I think there’s some good debates to be had about England’s back row, but dropping Curry is not one of them.

I suspect jngf has watched the highlights from the Bristol vs. Dragons game which has now lead him to believe Earl is the latest player he believes to be superior to Curry. The last was Ewers I think

I do actually think Earl is making a very strong case for inclusion though. He’s managing to make the highlight reels as well as putting in a really good contribution at the coal face too. Basically, he’s offering all the plus points of Simmonds whilst being a bit more noticeable in defence and given he’s already made Eddie’s last few match day squads, he has to be in with an excellent shout. FWIW, I feel sorry for Simmonds. He’s been unlucky with injury, Eddie’s selection vagaries and is now in a situation where there’s more and more quality competition.

Generally, if we’re looking at the three back row players in the best form right now, I’d say Jack Willis, Earl and Tom Curry are a fair way ahead with Ben Curry not too far behind. Underhill has been as consistently good as he usually is - the rest have just stood out/been more influential for their teams. Ted Hill, Simmonds and Ludlam are in a similar situation - good, without being at the same level as the top 3/4.

Dombrandt has been a lot less conspicuous ... he’s doing OK and still has the ability to work some magic, but in his desire to show he can do more of the dirty work, he’s lost some of his instinctiveness.

Personally I’d like to see Underhill, Curry and Earl with Willis on the bench. I don’t really care who wears what shirt.

[twitchy]

6. Underhill
7. Curry
8. Vunipola

[Scrumhead]

The big debate for me is whether Billy warrants being picked. I didn’t see today’s game, but based upon his form since the restart, I’m really not convinced that he deserves a place in the squad.

Maybe a kick up the backside would do him some good?

[Puja]

The big debate for me is whether Billy warrants being picked. I didn’t see today’s game, but based upon his form since the restart, I’m really not convinced that he deserves a place in the squad.

Maybe a kick up the backside would do him some good?

I would say that Billy's a long way down the list of available back row right now. I am on record as wanting Cunderhillis as my starting 6/7/8, with Earl in the 20, and I think I'd have BCurry as first call for injury before I picked BillyV right now.

Puja

[Which Tyler]

I've been calling for a reality shock dropping for Billy since the RWC warm-ups.
I havent seen anything in the last 12 months to make think he doesn't still need that kick up the backside.

The trouble with doing so now is if we have faith in him raising his game as a result... He's going to have very limited game-time ahead of the 6N, so can we afford to take more away from him?

My answer is a firm "yes" but it would be part of the equation.


If I were picking a backrow right now, I'd be starting Curry and Underhill, Mercer at 8, and Willis on the bench.
If we're set on turning Curry into an 8, then Willis starts alongside Underhill, with Mercer and Earl fighting over a bench spot.

[Mikey Brown]

I really want to see it in Mercer but I’m just not sure I do. I feel like I’m leaning too much on watching highlights perhaps, but it’s hard to think of what Mercer is offering right now that Earl couldn’t?

[Which Tyler]

I feel exactly the same the other way around.

Except that Mercer is an 8 who can cover either flank, whilst Earl's a flanker who can cover 8. I also feel that Mercer is the 2nd best lineout option we have in the backrow behind Hill - but I'm not sure how fair that is.

As I've said before though, pretty much the way of picking a bad backrow for England is to put locks back there. Otherwise it's variations on the theme of good.

[twitchy]

I think lots of the players we are discussing are quite interchangeable. Billy is completely different none of the of the others can do what he does and he has proven himself at the highest level over and over again.

I also think that this season has just been bizarre. Saracens relegation plus covid meaning that we watch glorified training games involving mis matched squads of second teamers/youth players playing barabrians style chuck it about stuff because it doesn't matter who wins. Great for the twitter highlight clips but..

Think of who you would actually want in a crunch six nations match in february in front of a full packed crowd etc.

[Scrumhead]

It’s not just post restart form though. Billy has been in very average form for a long time now. It looked as though he was pretty much going through the motions at the RWC and since then he’s even publicly said so. If he can’t get motivated for the biggest games of his career, when is he going to?

If the stricter interpretation of the breakdown laws are here to stay, we’d be far better looking at other players who offer more mobility and a better breakdown threat IMO. As good as Billy has been, I wonder whether the era of the big ball-carrying 8 has had it’s day?

Like Which, I’m a big fan of Mercer, but he needs to get back in Eddie’s good books, whereas Earl is already there (and playing very well).

[twitchy]

Unrelated to the above which I just saw (I will watch the replay later).

I wonder whether the era of the big ball-carrying 8 has had it’s day?

I think you are over thinking things. It's still rugby. Having to constantly bring down billy has a physical/mental drain on the opposition. You just incorporate other things alongside it. Having billy start then bringing earle on later is how I would go.

[fivepointer]

Not along ago Billy was seen as an automatic selection at 8. Has his form slumped so much? I'm not sure it has. He may not be quite at the top of his game but he isnt that far off. And even if he isnt at 100%, he surely has some credit in the bank given the quality of his play for most of his time with England.
He's still my pick at 8.
What to do on the flanks? We could perm any 2 from about 6 or 7 and still look very good. I'm a big fan of Ted Hill. I also wouldnt rule out Mark Wilson from coming back for next years 6N's, though things may have moved on in his almost certain absence this autumn.
We surely have to see if Jack Willis can play at the highest level soon.
How do we get reasonable opportunities for all the contenders? Likely we can't but i wouldnt be averse to seeing some rotation when England play again.
Lets try out a few combinations and see where it leads us. We have enough quality to mix n match to quite a degree and can tailor our selection to the opposition we're up against.

[FKAS]

Not along ago Billy was seen as an automatic selection at 8. Has his form slumped so much?

I think he's lost the acceleration and explosive nature of his carrying game. He's still a quality player but a couple of years back he looked like he'd be one of the big names in world rugby whilst right now I'm not sure he'll tour with the Lions next summer. Sarries relegation might actually help him because he's had injuries and has admitted that he has played too many games. A season of just working on his fitness with the occasional easy game might just put him back on track.

[Scrumhead]

Unrelated to the above which I just saw (I will watch the replay later).

I wonder whether the era of the big ball-carrying 8 has had it’s day?

I think you are over thinking things. It's still rugby. Having to constantly bring down billy has a physical/mental drain on the opposition. You just incorporate other things alongside it. Having billy start then bringing earle on later is how I would go.

I don’t think I am.

When you look around, most of our Tier 1 rivals are moving away from sheer size and focusing on athleticism and explosiveness. Australia were one of the few that had a bigger player in Naisarani, but he’s not been included in Rennie’s first squad.

Hoskins Sotutu is big, but he has a far more varied skill set than heavy carrying. I’d argue his athleticism (including being a lineout option) is more important than his size. Even then he’s a similar size to Mercer - not a Billy size/shape.

Looking at our 6N rivals, none of Aldritt, Doris, Faletau, Polledri or any of the Scots’ options are notably big.

[Scrumhead]

Not along ago Billy was seen as an automatic selection at 8. Has his form slumped so much?

I think he's lost the acceleration and explosive nature of his carrying game. He's still a quality player but a couple of years back he looked like he'd be one of the big names in world rugby whilst right now I'm not sure he'll tour with the Lions next summer. Sarries relegation might actually help him because he's had injuries and has admitted that he has played too many games. A season of just working on his fitness with the occasional easy game might just put him back on track.

Agreed. I’m not writing him off.

I just think that his form in the last year - possibly even the last 18mths isn’t really at the level to be an undisputed starter and his place should be up for debate.

I do think the game is evolving and I’m not sure Billy has the right combination of skills for the direction it seems to be going in ...

[twitchy]

Unrelated to the above which I just saw (I will watch the replay later).

I wonder whether the era of the big ball-carrying 8 has had it’s day?

I think you are over thinking things. It's still rugby. Having to constantly bring down billy has a physical/mental drain on the opposition. You just incorporate other things alongside it. Having billy start then bringing earle on later is how I would go.

I don’t think I am.

When you look around, most of our Tier 1 rivals are moving away from sheer size and focusing on athleticism and explosiveness. Australia were one of the few that had a bigger player in Naisarani, but he’s not been included in Rennie’s first squad.

Hoskins Sotutu is big, but he has a far more varied skill set than heavy carrying. I’d argue his athleticism (including being a lineout option) is more important than his size. Even then he’s a similar size to Mercer - not a Billy size/shape.

Looking at our 6N rivals, none of Aldritt, Doris, Faletau, Polledri or any of the Scots’ options are notably big.

Have you mentally blocked out the WC final already (probably a wise idea). Also if wal/ire/sco had a billy v type of player they would almost certainly play them they just don't.

Like I said I think you are over thinking it.

[Scrumhead]

I really don’t think I am ... I’ve been saying the same thing for a while. I did a whole thread on it a while back and that was well before the breakdown laws started getting more strictly applied.

Vermeulen is pretty much the only other number 8 of comparable size/style to Billy and he’s getting on now. Previously they were playing Whiteley who’s much more like the rangy, athletic type I’m describing.

[Banquo]

It’s not just post restart form though. Billy has been in very average form for a long time now. It looked as though he was pretty much going through the motions at the RWC and since then he’s even publicly said so. If he can’t get motivated for the biggest games of his career, when is he going to?

If the stricter interpretation of the breakdown laws are here to stay, we’d be far better looking at other players who offer more mobility and a better breakdown threat IMO. As good as Billy has been, I wonder whether the era of the big ball-carrying 8 has had it’s day?

Like Which, I’m a big fan of Mercer, but he needs to get back in Eddie’s good books, whereas Earl is already there (and playing very well).

Billy was terrific in the semi final v NZ. He also looked a lot better yesterday I thought; wouldn’t write him off just yet.

Been underwhelmed by Mercer tbh.