3rd Choice

[fivepointer]

Discussion on the merits on another thread about Harry Williams being our 3rd choice THP led me to wonder about the expectations on a 3rd choice player.
Now, being 3rd choice does mean you are an inferior player to no's 1 and 2, but what realistically should we hope and expect a 3rd choice player to be capable of?
Would we expect the same kind of impact as no's 1 and 2 ? And if there is a marked drop off in performance, how much should we tolerate?
How much game time should a number 3 get?
Should a number 3 be the next best available player, or do we always opt for the promising youngster?

[Raggs]

Start of a rwc 3rd should be a promising youngster if the 2 above are established. If one of the 2 is the promising youngster, 3rd should be an old head like Cole if he's still upto the job if called on.

One year out from rwc it should be the best 3 at the time, ignoring age.

[Which Tyler]

For England, depth is supposed to be a real strength - our 3rd choice in any position should be more than a solid pro or exciting youngster* and should be pushing the top 2 and perfectly capable of forcing his way into the team with some good form.


* Though I prefer the latter to the former, as the 3rd choice is unlikely to be called up to start for England, and can have a solid pro promoted ahead of them in an injury crisis before they're ready.



Ideally the top 3 for any position would have a good age distribution, and all be capable of playing their way ahead of the others. If that's not possible, then, for 3 out of every 4 years, #3 should be a relative youngster who's future is being invested in. In a RWC year, he should probably be an established pro who won't let anyone down.
As for THP - which has sparked this debate; our top 2 have a good age profile; we don't have a 3rd who can push either of them, and we're not in a RWC year, so I'd want someone with greater potential than Williams as 3rd choice... We just don't have one that's ready to be more than an apprentice (with the usual caviats on how much I know about front row play).

[Which Tyler]

3rd choice XV time...

1. Genge
2. Dunn
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Isiekwe / Kpoku
6. THill
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

9. Mitchel
10. Simmonds
11. McConnochie
12. James
13. Marhant / Lawrence
14. Thorley
15. Steward


There's only 1 player in there who I don't think would be challenging for a place in the 1st choice 23 if given 1-2 years of club development and a dozen sub appearances at international level


FTR, I'm assuming the following as first 2 choices
MVunipola, Marler, George, LCD, Sinckler, Stuart
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, JHIll
TCurry, Ludlam, Underhill, Willis, BVunipola, Mercer

Spencer, Robson, Ford, Farrell
Devoto, Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph
May, Nowell, Watson, Cokanasiga
Daly, Malins

[Puja]

For England, depth is supposed to be a real strength - our 3rd choice in any position should be more than a solid pro or exciting youngster* and should be pushing the top 2 and perfectly capable of forcing his way into the team with some good form.



* Though I prefer the latter to the former, as the 3rd choice is unlikely to be called up to start for England, and can have a solid pro promoted ahead of them in an injury crisis before they're ready.

Agreed. Given our number of top teams and our regularity of injuries, I would ideally want first, second, and third to be pushing each other for the starting role or, at the very least, for 3 to be pushing 2 for his bench slot. We want somebody to be annoyed at being left out of the team and trying to get better and for nobody to be complacent that they own a shirt.

We do have that in a lot of positions - apart from the clown-car situation that is our recent flurry of decent back rows, we have Genge at 1, Dunn at 2, EVERYONE at 6,7,8, Marchant/Joseph at 13, Cokanasiga/McConnochie at wing (assuming May/Watson as starters and Nowell as the first sub).

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Yep. I agree with all of the above really.

In fairness, Eddie’s ‘apprentice’ program is a good indicator that he has an eye on the future and calling up Joe Heyes is a nod towards developing a younger player as a 3rd choice option at tighthead.

Cole is on the wane which means Heyes is already getting plenty of game time and experience without being ‘over played’. Borthwick also seems very much in favour of developing his Tigers team around the academy.

I know some see promise in Ehren Painter, but I don’t quite see what he brings. He’s a massive unit, but he doesn’t seem to do anything notably well. He reminds me of a bad version of Kieran Brookes.

Marcus Street is very highly-rated, but has a significant challenge to get game time ahead of Williams and Francis at Exeter.

Jack Stanley could be a wildcard. As I wrote elsewhere on the board, he didn’t make it at Exeter or Edinburgh but has looked promising so far at Gloucester and should get plenty of opportunities next season. Maybe he’s just a slightly later developer.

[Scrumhead]

3rd choice XV time...

1. Genge
2. Dunn
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Isiekwe / Kpoku
6. THill
7. Earl
8. Dombrandt

9. Mitchel
10. Simmonds
11. McConnochie
12. James
13. Marhant / Lawrence
14. Thorley
15. Steward


There's only 1 player in there who I don't think would be challenging for a place in the 1st choice 23 if given 1-2 years of club development and a dozen sub appearances at international level


FTR, I'm assuming the following as first 2 choices
MVunipola, Marler, George, LCD, Sinckler, Stuart
Itoje, Lawes, Launchbury, JHIll
TCurry, Ludlam, Underhill, Willis, BVunipola, Mercer

Spencer, Robson, Ford, Farrell
Devoto, Tuilagi, Slade, Joseph
May, Nowell, Watson, Cokanasiga
Daly, Malins

That’s not far off what I’d go for, but as Furbank’s been retained (which was somewhat surprising given his post restart form) and Wilson, Heinz and Francis are still in the picture, I’d imagine they’d feature. Heinz and Furbank probably in the 2nd XV and Wilson and Francis in the third XV.

I think this is maybe a more accurate 3rd XV (although not what I’d choose):

1. Genge
2. Singleton/Dunn
3. Williams
4. Ewels
5. Isiekwe
6. Hill
7. Ludlam/Earl
8. Wilson
9. Spencer/Mitchell
10. Smith/Simmonds/Umaga
11. McConnochie
12. Francis
13. Marchant/Lawrence
14. Thorley
15. Malins