RugbyRebels

Saw this today and found it interesting, especially given the recent news of the FA chair having to stand down for being impressively oblivious about many things:



Puja

I kind of see his argument, but conversely could it not be seen as a positive thing that it isn’t plastered all over google? Suggesting a more tolerant society that doesn’t think just because a captain happens to be black it is necessarily abnormal.

It appears that Robinsons thoughts are that the media under-reporting on his captaincy is a slight against him, I doubt that was ever the intention. Regarding punditry, Alphonsi, Monye and guscott are all currently plying their trade at the highest level.

It does appear that Robinson seems to have been lost of the shuffle in regards rugby after retirement, just not sure how much of that is based on his race.

Are you suggesting he sounds too northern?

padprop wrote:I kind of see his argument, but conversely could it not be seen as a positive thing that it isn’t plastered all over google? Suggesting a more tolerant society that doesn’t think just because a captain happens to be black it is necessarily abnormal.

I don't know that rugby (or this country) is anywhere near evolved enough to be able to claim that skin colour doesn't matter.

Puja

Which Tyler wrote:Are you suggesting he sounds too northern?

Bingo

padprop wrote:Regarding punditry, Alphonsi, Monye and guscott are all currently plying their trade at the highest level.

Bar their actual punditry comes in some way short of being of the highest level

Puja wrote:

padprop wrote:I kind of see his argument, but conversely could it not be seen as a positive thing that it isn’t plastered all over google? Suggesting a more tolerant society that doesn’t think just because a captain happens to be black it is necessarily abnormal.

I don't know that rugby (or this country) is anywhere near evolved enough to be able to claim that skin colour doesn't matter.

Puja

Agreed, I just don’t necessarily think that the reason those google articles aren't there is due to his race or a lack of care from the media/people at large. I just tried to google to find the first Maori/Aboriginal captains for New Zealand and Australia and couldn't find any names. Its a very specific thing to search on very specific sport, there’s not going to be much coverage full stop.

Kolisi was obviously a massive thing for a variety of reasons, and was reported as such. It captured the publics imagination and rightly so. Comparing that to Robinson in 2007 is miles away, and the lack if press coverage probably reflects that.

As ever, it is about emphasis which means opinion. Perhaps Robinson should be thinking mainly that he was a good enough rugby player and leader to captain his country not that he was/was not selected with colour in mind. Most people remember him as a bloody good rugby player. Maybe, a few remember him as a bloody good BLACK rugby player but was he ever described as such in his playing days? Unless, he was, he'd not figure in searches with that label obviously.

padprop wrote:Comparing that to Robinson in 2007 is miles away, and the lack if press coverage probably reflects that.

Wasn't Vicks captain in 2007? Robinson had been made captain earlier, possibly by Robinson or maybe even Woodward

What does it mean that I'm aware Robinson was captain at some point, but haven't got a clue when or how long for? I didn't think it was 2007 either, or very long-lasting.

Oakboy wrote:As ever, it is about emphasis which means opinion. Perhaps Robinson should be thinking mainly that he was a good enough rugby player and leader to captain his country not that he was/was not selected with colour in mind. Most people remember him as a bloody good rugby player. Maybe, a few remember him as a bloody good BLACK rugby player but was he ever described as such in his playing days? Unless, he was, he'd not figure in searches with that label obviously.

Indeed. When I think of Jason Robinson, I think of a number of fantastic moments in an England jersey, but I don’t immediately think of his skin colour.

Having said that, given the context of rugby as a game and how it is generally perceived, England’s first black captain should probably be more celebrated.

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:As ever, it is about emphasis which means opinion. Perhaps Robinson should be thinking mainly that he was a good enough rugby player and leader to captain his country not that he was/was not selected with colour in mind. Most people remember him as a bloody good rugby player. Maybe, a few remember him as a bloody good BLACK rugby player but was he ever described as such in his playing days? Unless, he was, he'd not figure in searches with that label obviously.

Indeed. When I think of Jason Robinson, I think of a number of fantastic moments in an England jersey, but I don’t immediately think of his skin colour.

Having said that, given the context of rugby as a game and how it is generally perceived, England’s first black captain should probably be more celebrated.

Yes, I suppose you are right but part of me can't agree. When this thread came up I had to think hard that Robinson WAS black. It was a fringe part of my memory behind all the rugby skill attributes. Surely, that reaction should be what real equality is all about. What I am getting at is that there is something creditworthy in NOT celebrating that JR was the first black captain - only because his captaincy was important for rugby reasons and linking it to his skin tone devalues the achievement slightly (i.e. in case it was perceived that some tiny part of the justification for his appointment was that he would get credit for being the first black captain rather than being appointed for wholly rugby-related reasons). I'm not describing this very well!!

What does it say about me, other than I’ve suffered too many concussions, that I didn’t even remember that Robinson was capt.
Top, top bloke, too.

Oakboy wrote:

Scrumhead wrote:

Oakboy wrote:As ever, it is about emphasis which means opinion. Perhaps Robinson should be thinking mainly that he was a good enough rugby player and leader to captain his country not that he was/was not selected with colour in mind. Most people remember him as a bloody good rugby player. Maybe, a few remember him as a bloody good BLACK rugby player but was he ever described as such in his playing days? Unless, he was, he'd not figure in searches with that label obviously.

Indeed. When I think of Jason Robinson, I think of a number of fantastic moments in an England jersey, but I don’t immediately think of his skin colour.

Having said that, given the context of rugby as a game and how it is generally perceived, England’s first black captain should probably be more celebrated.

Yes, I suppose you are right but part of me can't agree. When this thread came up I had to think hard that Robinson WAS black. It was a fringe part of my memory behind all the rugby skill attributes. Surely, that reaction should be what real equality is all about. What I am getting at is that there is something creditworthy in NOT celebrating that JR was the first black captain - only because his captaincy was important for rugby reasons and linking it to his skin tone devalues the achievement slightly (i.e. in case it was perceived that some tiny part of the justification for his appointment was that he would get credit for being the first black captain rather than being appointed for wholly rugby-related reasons). I'm not describing this very well!!

I think this is one of those amazing occasions where we agree.

I agree that it's nice that we don't instantly think about his skin tone. However, it's just been black history month right? Where they were doing all sorts of things bigging up black rugby players, and yet skipped over the first black captain of England. That's the issue for me.

I agree that it was definitely a missed opportunity. Is there more to it? Personally, I don’t think so.

Scrumhead wrote:I agree that it was definitely a missed opportunity. Is there more to it? Personally, I don’t think so.

I don't know. You're making a big deal of historic black players, talking to current ones. Surely Robinson is iconic enough to be interviewed purely on his performances, let alone being the first captain. Just seems an odd one to miss out.

Also, there is clearly a perception about rugby being a posh, white sport. Why would you not be regularly working with someone like Jason Robinson, who not only challenges that narrative, but has huge credibility in League circles too and could potentially gateway into those groups to broaden Union's appeal beyond the South?

Raggs wrote:I agree that it's nice that we don't instantly think about his skin tone. However, it's just been black history month right? Where they were doing all sorts of things bigging up black rugby players, and yet skipped over the first black captain of England. That's the issue for me.

I'd say that was a significant moment. Robinson deserves a lot more recognition for that, and being an outstanding rugby player.

To be totally clear, I’m not saying Robinson shouldn’t be recognised or given more involvement. I’m only questioning whether or not he’s being intentionally left out.

Scrumhead wrote:To be totally clear, I’m not saying Robinson shouldn’t be recognised or given more involvement. I’m only questioning whether or not he’s being intentionally left out.

I don't expect he's being deliberately left out by evil people saying, "Oh no, we don't want the black one," but that's the insiduousness of societal racism - it gets in through a thousand micro-decisions ending up in you where you're looking at two people for a job and your brain favours the white one because of something intangible. The classic one is that BAME players as seen as instinctive, natural players who "probably couldn't teach what they had", whereas a similar white player would be seen as a student of the game with knowledge to impart.

That's why there has to exist things like Black History month and Rooney rules, because we can say consciously that we don't see race (or gender) and then go on appointing nothing but white men for all time because our subconscious still does and has taken in a lifetime of conditioning that "this is a job that only white men do".

Puja