Watson next up on an ‘offensive language’ charge

[Digby]

And this hearing is well and truly earned, so that makes a nice change. I happen to think it was a shocker of a red card, but if as it seems he ranted in vulgar terms at a match official he's due a decent ban.

[Beasties]

I'd have Parisse up on a charge too, he was like a spoilt child when Nige was admonishing him in the QF.

[Lizard]

It shouldn't be up to referees and judiciaries to ensure referees are treated with the proper respect. Senior team mates (in fact all team mates) should be pulling miscreants in to line.

[Banquo]

It shouldn't be up to referees and judiciaries to ensure referees are treated with the proper respect. Senior team mates (in fact all team mates) should be pulling miscreants in to line.

yup, and coaches and clubs themselves should deal with it off the park too. Skippers have a big responsibility on and off the park.

[Digby]

I also think refs would have an easier time of it if they clamped down much quicker and much harder on players behaving like tired toddlers. However they should be taking action when like this someone steps way over the line, unless Watson was simply shouting the lyrics to his favourite Steely Dan song

[Puja]

I'd have Parisse up on a charge too, he was like a spoilt child when Nige was admonishing him in the QF.

Seconded. I'd have yellowed him myself when he turned his back and walked off shaking his head before Nige had even stopped speaking. He didn't quite do anything in particular that would justify it, but he was consistently disrespectful and arrogant.

I'm worried about the way the game is going at the moment - players like Farrell and Dickson seem to think they've got carte blanche to talk to the referee however they like. Can't actually remember the last time I saw a side marched back 10m for backchat as well, so maybe it's the refs' fault.

Puja

[Mellsblue]

I'd have Parisse up on a charge too, he was like a spoilt child when Nige was admonishing him in the QF.

Seconded. I'd have yellowed him myself when he turned his back and walked off shaking his head before Nige had even stopped speaking. He didn't quite do anything in particular that would justify it, but he was consistently disrespectful and arrogant.

I'm worried about the way the game is going at the moment - players like Farrell and Dickson seem to think they've got carte blanche to talk to the referee however they like. Can't actually remember the last time I saw a side marched back 10m for backchat as well, so maybe it's the refs' fault.

Puja

[fivepointer]

I thought at the time that Watson seriously over stepped the mark after the red card. It was a bad sight.

Parisse too acted poorly towards the official. That isnt the first time either.

The attitude of players seems to be getting worse with dissent and appealing now commonplace. Time for refs to lay down the law. Let only captains speak and penalise those who give any chat back, or who want to commentate - Laidlaw during the 6N's game against Italy literally took over from the hapless ref.

[Which Tyler]

It shouldn't be up to referees and judiciaries to ensure referees are treated with the proper respect. Senior team mates (in fact all team mates) should be pulling miscreants in to line.

They did - but it was too late by then.

But we're not talking about a general lack of respect here (which is enforced constantly) we're talking about a 1-off volley of abuse at the 4th official after being given a red card that plenty of neutrals think wasn't even a penalty.

He really ought to cop a ban for that, quite possibly enough to keep him off the Aussie tour.

[Oakboy]

I thought at the time that Watson seriously over stepped the mark after the red card. It was a bad sight.

Parisse too acted poorly towards the official. That isnt the first time either.

The attitude of players seems to be getting worse with dissent and appealing now commonplace. Time for refs to lay down the law. Let only captains speak and penalise those who give any chat back, or who want to commentate - Laidlaw during the 6N's game against Italy literally took over from the hapless ref.

I think the 10m march back and penalty reversal type punishments have to occur early in the match to set the tone and be effective - preferably in the first ten minutes. That way, the demonstration of authority is not game-changing and all players know where they stand for the rest of the match, as do the supporters and coaches. Unusually and surprisingly, Nigel blew it with Parisse when he only warned him for the first backchat instance. Thereafter, Parisse just got progressively worse.

[Banquo]

Genie seems to be out of the bottle on back-chat; Unions, refs and coaches need to agree to support each other on a crack-down.

As which says though- player explodes is very different from the constant white noise of dissent, play acting and shouting at refs and touch judges. Has any player yet brandished an imaginary card?- I know they ask for them continually.

[Stom]

Genie seems to be out of the bottle on back-chat; Unions, refs and coaches need to agree to support each other on a crack-down.

As which says though- player explodes is very different from the constant white noise of dissent, play acting and shouting at refs and touch judges. Has any player yet brandished an imaginary card?- I know they ask for them continually.

Parisse most definitely has waved an imaginary card.

[Digby]

I think the 10m march back and penalty reversal type punishments have to occur early in the match to set the tone and be effective - preferably in the first ten minutes.

I think they have to occur when the players get too lippy. I don't though have a concern that more players than the captain talk to the ref, providing they're polite (enough) and seeking to understand how the ref is seeing the game and what he wants to happen. Once teams do consistently realise lippy players are costing them points and matches they'll self-police, sort of.

[Lizard]

Any ban for ref abuse should include a requirement that the player referee low grade club fixtures for the duration of the ban.

[Beasties]

I'd have Parisse up on a charge too, he was like a spoilt child when Nige was admonishing him in the QF.

Seconded. I'd have yellowed him myself when he turned his back and walked off shaking his head before Nige had even stopped speaking. He didn't quite do anything in particular that would justify it, but he was consistently disrespectful and arrogant.

I'm worried about the way the game is going at the moment - players like Farrell and Dickson seem to think they've got carte blanche to talk to the referee however they like. Can't actually remember the last time I saw a side marched back 10m for backchat as well, so maybe it's the refs' fault.

Puja

I'd actually forgotten all about the 10m marchback, it's so long since I've seen it, so totally agree with you. How odd that refs seem to have forgotten about it as well. I couldn't understand why Nige didn't take him to task after giving him a final warning. He's not usually so weedy in his reffing. Even if he'd marched them back 10 to avoid having to go to yellow then Parisse might have got the message. It's sad to see Parisse blot his carreer like this, he's getting worse with every game.

[Which Tyler]

Any ban for ref abuse should include a requirement that the player referee low grade club fixtures for the duration of the ban.

Having just seen how little it takes to qualify to ref the low grades - I'd agree entirely.

[Banquo]

I'd have Parisse up on a charge too, he was like a spoilt child when Nige was admonishing him in the QF.

Seconded. I'd have yellowed him myself when he turned his back and walked off shaking his head before Nige had even stopped speaking. He didn't quite do anything in particular that would justify it, but he was consistently disrespectful and arrogant.

I'm worried about the way the game is going at the moment - players like Farrell and Dickson seem to think they've got carte blanche to talk to the referee however they like. Can't actually remember the last time I saw a side marched back 10m for backchat as well, so maybe it's the refs' fault.

Puja

I'd actually forgotten all about the 10m marchback, it's so long since I've seen it, so totally agree with you. How odd that refs seem to have forgotten about it as well. I couldn't understand why Nige didn't take him to task after giving him a final warning. He's not usually so weedy in his reffing. Even if he'd marched them back 10 to avoid having to go to yellow then Parisse might have got the message. It's sad to see Parisse blot his carreer like this, he's getting worse with every game.

a lot of players (of many sports) get whingy when their own powers start to fade. TBH he has always been a bit of a prima donna.

[Mush]

Genie seems to be out of the bottle on back-chat; Unions, refs and coaches need to agree to support each other on a crack-down.

Why? If a ref can't cope alone with back chat with the sanctions he has at his disposal then I don't think they should be a ref at any level.

[Banquo]

Genie seems to be out of the bottle on back-chat; Unions, refs and coaches need to agree to support each other on a crack-down.

Why? If a ref can't cope alone with back chat with the sanctions he has at his disposal then I don't think they should be a ref at any level.

Because it won't be long before coaches complain to the unions about refs over-penalising.....as soon as it costs them a game/money. Then unless the union holds the line, the refs get marked down.....and you can guess the rest.

Do you think refs are on top of it............(for example, refs have the sanctions to stop crooked feeds, but pretty much don't)

[Mush]

Genie seems to be out of the bottle on back-chat; Unions, refs and coaches need to agree to support each other on a crack-down.

Why? If a ref can't cope alone with back chat with the sanctions he has at his disposal then I don't think they should be a ref at any level.

Because it won't be long before coaches complain to the unions about refs over-penalising.....as soon as it costs them a game/money. Then unless the union holds the line, the refs get marked down.....and you can guess the rest.

Do you think refs are on top of it............

But the first sanction is to award a penalty and take it back another 10 metres if a player continues to talk back to the ref. Simple decision from the ref and equally simple decision not to do it again by anyone else on the pitch. If a ref can't officiate one of the corner stones of our game (self discipline) then, I repeat, they shouldn't be a ref at any level.

And yes, at the very low level I still play at, the refs are on top of it; but then they also penalise a skew put in at the scrum.

[Banquo]

Why? If a ref can't cope alone with back chat with the sanctions he has at his disposal then I don't think they should be a ref at any level.

Because it won't be long before coaches complain to the unions about refs over-penalising.....as soon as it costs them a game/money. Then unless the union holds the line, the refs get marked down.....and you can guess the rest.

Do you think refs are on top of it............

But the first sanction is to award a penalty and take it back another 10 metres if a player continues to talk back to the ref. Simple decision from the ref and equally simple decision not to do it again by anyone else on the pitch. If a ref can't officiate one of the corner stones of our game (self discipline) then, I repeat, they shouldn't be a ref at any level.

And yes, at the very low level I still play at, the refs are on top of it; but then they also penalise a skew put in at the scrum.

You can repeat all you like, but unless they are supported in what would now be a crackdown, they will soon stop. Coaches and captains have a responsibility here, as before. As I said, self discipline is poor now and getting worse, its become the theme of the thread. The pressures are entirely different in the pro game. The refs obviously have the power, but better to cut the problem off at source in terms of systemic dissent in my view. Oh and by the way, the point wasn't about individual refs 'coping', it was about the ever rising dissent in the pro game.

Why do you think the sanctions are almost never used, by even the best?

[Mush]

Because it won't be long before coaches complain to the unions about refs over-penalising.....as soon as it costs them a game/money. Then unless the union holds the line, the refs get marked down.....and you can guess the rest.

Do you think refs are on top of it............

But the first sanction is to award a penalty and take it back another 10 metres if a player continues to talk back to the ref. Simple decision from the ref and equally simple decision not to do it again by anyone else on the pitch. If a ref can't officiate one of the corner stones of our game (self discipline) then, I repeat, they shouldn't be a ref at any level.

And yes, at the very low level I still play at, the refs are on top of it; but then they also penalise a skew put in at the scrum.

You can repeat all you like, but unless they are supported in what would now be a crackdown, they will soon stop. Coaches and captains have a responsibility here, as before. As I said, self discipline is poor now and getting worse, its become the theme of the thread. The pressures are entirely different in the pro game. The refs obviously have the power, but better to cut the problem off at source in terms of systemic dissent in my view. Oh and by the way, the point wasn't about individual refs 'coping', it was about the ever rising dissent in the pro game.

Why do you think the sanctions are almost never used, by even the best?

Cutting off the problem at source is exactly what I'm suggesting, way before team mates, captains, coaches or unions feel they need to intervene.

I've no idea why appropriate sanctions are not used, but pressure, at any level, will be brought to bear on refs that relax on this type of discipline. We see more and more football style ill discipline and it's becoming a blight on the game of rugby.

[Banquo]

But the first sanction is to award a penalty and take it back another 10 metres if a player continues to talk back to the ref. Simple decision from the ref and equally simple decision not to do it again by anyone else on the pitch. If a ref can't officiate one of the corner stones of our game (self discipline) then, I repeat, they shouldn't be a ref at any level.

And yes, at the very low level I still play at, the refs are on top of it; but then they also penalise a skew put in at the scrum.

You can repeat all you like, but unless they are supported in what would now be a crackdown, they will soon stop. Coaches and captains have a responsibility here, as before. As I said, self discipline is poor now and getting worse, its become the theme of the thread. The pressures are entirely different in the pro game. The refs obviously have the power, but better to cut the problem off at source in terms of systemic dissent in my view. Oh and by the way, the point wasn't about individual refs 'coping', it was about the ever rising dissent in the pro game.

Why do you think the sanctions are almost never used, by even the best?

Cutting off the problem at source is exactly what I'm suggesting, way before team mates, captains, coaches or unions feel they need to intervene.

I've no idea why appropriate sanctions are not used, but pressure, at any level, will be brought to bear on refs that relax on this type of discipline. We see more and more football style ill discipline and it's becoming a blight on the game of rugby.

well quite, that's why we are arguing and why I'm suggesting it needs an end to end answer, rather than just relying on refs, who are clearly not stopping at source! (and I wouldn't be surprised if coaches are actually encouraging nerve warfare on some refs....they certainly do it before games). You also need the coaches to be supporting refs post matches, if nothing else by not moaning.

What is your suggestion for changing the status quo, as your assertion is that everything is in place already, yet we have the problem.

[kk67]

But the first sanction is to award a penalty and take it back another 10 metres if a player continues to talk back to the ref. Simple decision from the ref and equally simple decision not to do it again by anyone else on the pitch. If a ref can't officiate one of the corner stones of our game (self discipline) then, I repeat, they shouldn't be a ref at any level.

And yes, at the very low level I still play at, the refs are on top of it; but then they also penalise a skew put in at the scrum.

It's seems to me that law changes and use of sanctions is determined from the top down with directives from various sources. Hence the disconnect between elite level and almost all other rugby in terms of application, interpretation of the law and the use of sanctions.
Interestingly in the case of Parisse one of the sanctions open to the ref' is to replace the captain with someone else on the basis he isn't up to the job. This can be very useful. I reckon I do it at least once a season and usually replace both at the same time. If one skip' is getting lippy you can pretty much guarantee the other will have joined in.

[Digby]

You also need the coaches to be supporting refs post matches, if nothing else by not moaning.

They can watch their team drop the ball over the line rather than score, fail to give scoring passes, miss tackles, give up soft penalties and miss easy kicks at goal, and still a good number will blame the ref and not their team. It mayn't be all of them, though it pretty much is, but plenty will do the Fergie thing of support their team and their right to win rather than support the sport in public. Tricky one to sanction the coaches over until we start getting some sensible feedback from the refs, as is the refs do make some howlers and then stay quiet on it other than a behind the scenes report back to the clubs. I'd like to see the refs, or their bosses, address some of the mistakes made by the refs and then the game clamp down on coaches going OTT. For as long as the refs remain a protected species in public I think the game will look a bit daft going after the coaches and staying quiet about clear and obvious mistakes.