Owen Farrell

[Epaminondas Pules]

Gave away 15 penalties....discuss.

[jimKRFC]

What?? He was manfully trying to take the game by the scruff of it's neck and all around him failed...
9/10 at least!

[TheNomad]

He's not good enough. I don't care about today where he, along with everyone else, had an absolute stinker.

But using the evidence of the overwhelming majority of his international performances, he's not a Tier 1 Fly Half

Play Ford, and give some time to the likes of Smith and Simmonds.

He's actually a pretty respectable 12, if what you want is a second distributor and a solid defender.

But not at 10

[Which Tyler]

He just had a bad day at the office. It happens to the best of us. As proven today, when it happened to the best of us.
That's one bad game out of 92, we'll probably have to wait another 92 before he suffers another

[Mikey Brown]

Gave away 15 penalties....discuss.

It’s at the point you’re at least as weird and uppity regarding this subject as all the haters.

I think people go overboard, but at the same time he is our captain and we appear to build everything around him, regardless of him being fairly bad at very basic things at least as regularly as he is any good.

[Mikey Brown]

Yes we get repetitive about it but we are in a lockdown after all.

[TheNomad]

Got a 7 and was our highest rated player from the Independent

Weird

[Danno]

Gave away 15 penalties....discuss.

It’s at the point you’re at least as weird and uppity regarding this subject as all the haters.

I think people go overboard, but at the same time he is our captain and we appear to build everything around him, regardless of him being fairly bad at very basic things at least as regularly as he is any good.

Yup.

[Jalo]

Farrell has neither the intelligence nor demeanor to be captain of the England Rugby team. Even as a player there is no subtlety about him. Today he kicked away England's precious little possession. Interviewed at the end of the match, he was a bumbling automaton bereft of ideas and answers. England in one match have lost 3 trophies 1) The Calcutta Cup, 2) The Triple Crown and 3) The Grand Slam. Eddie Jones is a fantasist!
Itoje was the only player/person on and off the field for England today.

[Epaminondas Pules]

The difference being I think Farrell is an average international, but that focussing on him is at best myopic and at worst stupid. Yet y’all keep coming back to singularity. Like LCD has the yips and the whole lineout isn’t a complex beast.

Focus on one player all you like. In a team sport. It’s easy and fun cause you can predispose your thoughts and ignore dependencies and codependencies. That a single player is affected by what goes on around then.

A couple of years ago I talked about adaption and co-adaption to the opposition. And it still rings true, but by all means Farrell, or Youngs, or whoever.

[Epaminondas Pules]

Oh, and coadaption isn’t down to a singular player or the captain alone. It’s how I adapt as an individual, as a unit, as a wider unit and as a team. If we only cover 1 or 2 we will always come unstuck. If we get to 4, which is a hardest of all to achieve then we become All Black like.

Thankfully the coaching revolution at age grade that started with Ashton has focussed on this as much as physical attributes and skills. The continual involvement of Fletch and his merry band at all levels is helping. But it takes time. And will fail at times. And failure is good. Failure at all levels.

But yeah Farrell. Or whoever else is the individual contributor.

[I R Geech]

Got a 7 and was our highest rated player from the Independent

Weird

They write most of their stuff before the game and then tweak it. Guess he forgot.

[wanderingjock]

I don't mind Owen farrell, I do think if things aren't g going his way he doesn't affect a match. I don't think he's the ice man, but he is a decent player. But..

[Buggaluggs]

I think Farrell should be the closer to come on with 20 mins left. Like Wales used Biggar a year or two ago/

[Jalo]

A simple comparison if I may - Joe Root England's cricket captain leading from the front with a double century on his 100th cap leading from the front with a smile on his face....and Owen Farrell, a morose, argumentative, confrontational and divisive 'captain' who has little wit and whilst he is captain, England will continue to remain in Ground Hog Day.

[fivepointer]

"A key difference was the way the two fly-halves operated. Finn Russell enjoyed more plentiful possession than Owen Farrell but it was his ability to find a route out of heavy traffic, drawing defenders and finding space through kicks or passes, that marked him out.
Farrell needed more time and it was a surprise Eddie Jones did not bring on George Ford earlier to replace Ollie Lawrence, who had to wait more than an hour for his first pass"

This is the kind of garbage we get from the press about Farrell. This is Paul Rees in the Guardian.
The solution to Farrell not playing well, isnt to remove him and replace him with a better player who could work in more confined spaces. Its to remove someone else who has hardly touched the ball.
Alas, this level of thought prevails in the England coaching hierarchy.

[FKAS]

"A key difference was the way the two fly-halves operated. Finn Russell enjoyed more plentiful possession than Owen Farrell but it was his ability to find a route out of heavy traffic, drawing defenders and finding space through kicks or passes, that marked him out.
Farrell needed more time and it was a surprise Eddie Jones did not bring on George Ford earlier to replace Ollie Lawrence, who had to wait more than an hour for his first pass"

This is the kind of garbage we get from the press about Farrell. This is Paul Rees in the Guardian.
The solution to Farrell not playing well, isnt to remove him and replace him with a better player who could work in more confined spaces. Its to remove someone else who has hardly touched the ball.
Alas, this level of thought prevails in the England coaching hierarchy.

There seems to be an agreement in the press and pundits not to criticise Farrell. The Sky Sports verdict ranked him lower (5/10) but still far more than he actually deserved.

[Mikey Brown]

Oh, and coadaption isn’t down to a singular player or the captain alone. It’s how I adapt as an individual, as a unit, as a wider unit and as a team. If we only cover 1 or 2 we will always come unstuck. If we get to 4, which is a hardest of all to achieve then we become All Black like.

Thankfully the coaching revolution at age grade that started with Ashton has focussed on this as much as physical attributes and skills. The continual involvement of Fletch and his merry band at all levels is helping. But it takes time. And will fail at times. And failure is good. Failure at all levels.

But yeah Farrell. Or whoever else is the individual contributor.

I mean sure, but what is the threshold where his actions on the pitch actually have to be held to some sort of standard? As it would with anybody else who gets to play for England. Of course any performance good or bad is a collective thing, but I don't see how that can justify absolving one particular player of any requirement to be good at least half the time. Has anybody else in the team put in dozens of these absolutely toothless performances and maintained their spot?

You talk about focussing on him, but it's the regularity of these performances (and the absurd media coverage) that prompt a lot of comment. It's a pretty reasonable thing to discuss on a rugby forum isn't it? You talk about being myopic as if this is distracting us all from our roles on the coaching staff or something.

We all know that performance on the field doesn't actually matter for him in terms of staying on the pitch or continuing as captain, and that's a slightly odd situation, no? Not Farrell's fault that it's become that way though.

[Insouciant]

Whilst it isn't one persons fault England lost, yes the team is a collective, you can look at how different parts functioned. When we had the ball, rare, the backs barely saw it. At different times we had a 7 on 3 and a 5 on 3... both times Farrell kicked. We had precious little possession yesterday and to kick it away poorly in those situations are big noticeable errors.

These 2 errors are also bad as part of a collective. In the picture on the England V Scotland thread* Lawrence has his hands up to catch. He probably hadn't had a touch at that point in the game. We have good outside backs. Watson, Daly and May are all pacey attacking threats, particularly May. Farrell's poor decision making brings their performance down by not allowing them opportunities.

IMO one reason he gets focus on here is the media thing. He never gets criticism. He's the Ice man, Terminator etc. It's frustrating to watch him make mistakes and never be criticized fairly, hell last year in a game he missed a tackle and the commentator said Ford instead of Farrell.. an error I'm sure but probably a symptom of not blaming the 'savior'. He's fine - excellent at times for sure but I'd pick Ford next weekend and keep faith with Lawrence as he's barely had a touch to do anything wrong.


(Image posted by Twitchy, page 13 - credit where it's due... & I can't do posting images)

[fivepointer]

Maybe the tide is turning......https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... tland.html

[TheNomad]

Mike Brown has made a similar point - has said we should start Ford

[Oakboy]

Maybe the tide is turning......https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby ... tland.html

In a way, I have reservations about it changing to being 'all Farrell's fault'. It is actually all Jones's fault and the constant deification of Farrell is merely one of the symptoms of Jones's failings. Even Farrell's performances can be neutered by the game plan. He will never be a flair merchant but he is being let down by his head coach (in so far as the tactics are demanding robotic play at FH).

Yes, I want Farrell dropped but he is not the fundamental problem.

[fivepointer]

Ultimately its down to Jones but at least some in the media are actually examining the input of a player that for far too long has been held to be above criticism.

[Oakboy]

Ultimately its down to Jones but at least some in the media are actually examining the input of a player that for far too long has been held to be above criticism.

Agreed. The next logical step is to call for Jones's head though, isn't it? I haven't seen any of that yet.

[Mush]

Ultimately its down to Jones but at least some in the media are actually examining the input of a player that for far too long has been held to be above criticism.

Agreed. The next logical step is to call for Jones's head though, isn't it? I haven't seen any of that yet.

I think it's fair to have a conversation about Jones' ability to get the best out of the resources available - and I can't see how he can be - but you cannot absolve the players from that performance. Even if it is a crankcase plan, I do expect better execution of it.