RugbyRebels

Putting aside players like Farrell who everyone is bemused by, this championship has made me revaluate players I rated:

Itoje - still a good player,but I'm losing faith he will sort the discipline out.
Wilson - feels like a fading force.
BillyV - ditto, tough to keep up the level of his best but I fear it ain't coming back.
Daly - it's been a few years now with few flourishes. Some of the handling errors are naught to do with being full back.
Slade - a bit like 36 was. Seems to have it all, doesn't seem to command at international level.
Genge - bit like Itoje, not developing the smarts.

It feels a bit 2004-7 period to me. Particularly when we look at the replacements for the fading forces. Sadly people like Ewels and Robson are not looking up to it.

Harsh on Slade who gets naff all ball to do anything with. The rest is fair.

Daly been off the pace for far too long

Harsh on Itoje, who appears to be suffering from reputation as much as anything. He was strikingly unlucky on three penalties today - grabbing the 9's wrist being called as a deliberate knock-on, "offside" where the ball was so far out that even the ref agreed but said he hadn't retreated (he really had), and offside at a maul where he came down from a lineout on Wales's side, the touch judge told him to get out, he did, there was zero effect on the play, called back four phases later and given a talking to for persistent infringements.

I think he needs to play for a year as though the ref had warned him next penalty was a yellow. It's not fair and it'll involve him playing within himself, but refs seem to be looking for him right now and he's just got to lose the reputation.

Puja

Lawes if anything has gone up in my estimation - I wouldn’t start him at 6 but think he’s a great second row/back row impact player.

Tom Curry’s a good player but imo there’s better England 6s and better England 7s. For me he’s Moody 2.0 ( not the second coming of Richard Hill as perhaps nearly everyone else but me seems to be convinced of ) and increasingly plays like a 6.5 and less like the linking openside his early test career showed promising signs of . I get that he’s committed and punches above his weight (Though you could say the same of Ludlum too ) and that people love this about him etc. etc. but I believe their are more talented and stylish back row players in and around the England orbit. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this....

Puja wrote:Harsh on Itoje, who appears to be suffering from reputation as much as anything. He was strikingly unlucky on three penalties today - grabbing the 9's wrist being called as a deliberate knock-on, "offside" where the ball was so far out that even the ref agreed but said he hadn't retreated (he really had), and offside at a maul where he came down from a lineout on Wales's side, the touch judge told him to get out, he did, there was zero effect on the play, called back four phases later and given a talking to for persistent infringements.

I think he needs to play for a year as though the ref had warned him next penalty was a yellow. It's not fair and it'll involve him playing within himself, but refs seem to be looking for him right now and he's just got to lose the reputation.

Puja

That's three games in a row where Ijote has been 'unlucky'. He's always played right on the edge - it's what makes him so good. But there was perhaps an element before that his reputation was protecting him and this is reversion to the mean.

Itoje, Curry and Watson are pure class. LCD is currently our best 2 and is on the heels of the 3 mentioned.

After that form has deserted a handful of other quality players and others just ain’t good enough.

Not sure Jones can bullshit his way out of this one

Is it still possible to mute people on this board? What does adding them as a “foe” do? It sounds a bit ridiculous.

Mikey Brown wrote:Is it still possible to mute people on this board? What does adding them as a “foe” do? It sounds a bit ridiculous.

Foe is just the melodramatic way this software denotes muting/ignoring someone, so you won't see their posts. However, you will still be able to see a) that they've posted and b) the actual post when someone else quotes them by biting on the same rancid bait again.

Puja

Well I’m one of the worst offenders so I’ll try it for everyone else’s sake if not my own.

jngf wrote:Lawes if anything has gone up in my estimation - I wouldn’t start him at 6 but think he’s a great second row/back row impact player.

Tom Curry’s a good player but imo there’s better England 6s and better England 7s. For me he’s Moody 2.0 ( not the second coming of Richard Hill as perhaps nearly everyone else but me seems to be convinced of ) and increasingly plays like a 6.5 and less like the linking openside his early test career showed promising signs of . I get that he’s committed and punches above his weight (Though you could say the same of Ludlum too ) and that people love this about him etc. etc. but I believe their are more talented and stylish back row players in and around the England orbit. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this....

Who? Seriously. Suggest a better alternative to Curry. At 6, 7, even 8.

Puja wrote:Harsh on Itoje, who appears to be suffering from reputation as much as anything. He was strikingly unlucky on three penalties today - grabbing the 9's wrist being called as a deliberate knock-on, "offside" where the ball was so far out that even the ref agreed but said he hadn't retreated (he really had), and offside at a maul where he came down from a lineout on Wales's side, the touch judge told him to get out, he did, there was zero effect on the play, called back four phases later and given a talking to for persistent infringements.

I think he needs to play for a year as though the ref had warned him next penalty was a yellow. It's not fair and it'll involve him playing within himself, but refs seem to be looking for him right now and he's just got to lose the reputation.

Puja

Whilst I agree Itoje was hard done by today , some of those early ones were very harsh as you mentioned , the latter ones more his own fault . Other than being a nuisance, I’m honestly not sure what all the fuss is about . He’s not a great carrier , yes he’s involved in everything , yes he’s vocal and noticeable in every match , but I get the feeling that recently this has been for negative reasons rather than positive .

For balance , I feel the same way about AWJ although his leadership does marginally edge him into the positive .

Both I feel have sacred cow issues with respective supporters

Dont know about players being over rated.
Those highlighted are good players who have played very well for England at times. Some are not playing that well currently. Hard to know whether that demise is temporary, or that they have given their best and its time to look elsewhere.
The Saracens players just havent played enough, and i think you can put Wilson in that category too.

fivepointer wrote:Dont know about players being over rated.
Those highlighted are good players who have played very well for England at times. Some are not playing that well currently. Hard to know whether that demise is temporary, or that they have given their best and its time to look elsewhere.
The Saracens players just havent played enough, and i think you can put Wilson in that category too.

Agreed. I did not agree with the Saracens players being selected even when it was assumed that there would be Championship games to give some indication of form. If, for the sake of example, one of them picked up a '6 week' injury how could they be judged to be of sufficient form/fitness afterwards to merit international selection? Picking at any stage is/has been/will be entirely on past reputation. That is a ridiculous morale-dump for all rivals, IMO.

Danno wrote:

jngf wrote:Lawes if anything has gone up in my estimation - I wouldn’t start him at 6 but think he’s a great second row/back row impact player.

Tom Curry’s a good player but imo there’s better England 6s and better England 7s. For me he’s Moody 2.0 ( not the second coming of Richard Hill as perhaps nearly everyone else but me seems to be convinced of ) and increasingly plays like a 6.5 and less like the linking openside his early test career showed promising signs of . I get that he’s committed and punches above his weight (Though you could say the same of Ludlum too ) and that people love this about him etc. etc. but I believe their are more talented and stylish back row players in and around the England orbit. We’ll just have to agree to disagree on this....

Who? Seriously. Suggest a better alternative to Curry. At 6, 7, even 8.

Easy - at 6: Wilson, Ludlum, frankly Lawes and obviously Willis (pre injury)

at 7: Underhill, Earl (and outside the squad there’s more including Ben Curry)

at 8: are you avin a laff ?

fivepointer wrote:Dont know about players being over rated.
Those highlighted are good players who have played very well for England at times. Some are not playing that well currently. Hard to know whether that demise is temporary, or that they have given their best and its time to look elsewhere.
The Saracens players just havent played enough, and i think you can put Wilson in that category too.

Funnily enough, our better performers yesterday included at least 3 saracens. I don't think you can put lack of game time against the stupidity of Itoje.

I also read that 'we are selecting players from sides struggling in the league' plus sarries and that's the problem. I'm not really sure who is being missed from selection that is making a good case. Sam Simmonds and Dombrandt maybe, but even the former struggles when Exeter struggle (and they are at the mo).