(Hypothetical) Tour Squad

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

Been thinking about the will they won't they (I'm sure they will, in some form) tour.
Who do we want to see in the squad?
Who do we think Gatland will not take?

I really hope Ford goes with the Lions, because a) he deserves it as the best B&I fly half and b) I'd really like a look at Smith, Simmonds and, to a lesser extent Umaga.
I'd also really like Billy V to go. He doesn't deserve it, but I think both Simmonds and Dombrandt need a bit of time with Eddie to see how they can fit in.
I'm pretty convinced Gatland will take Billy and not Ford.

Second row will be interesting as apart from Itoje, not sure anyone will go. Lawes is a Gat favourite, and Launchbury is/was in great form. It'll be interesting whoever goes or not as post-Kruis there's a bit of a gap for backup lock. Do we think Martin's future is there? Is Ewels as good as his performance against France? Do we give up on Hill? Isiekwe? Ribbans?

I think both George and Cowan-Dickie will be with the Lions. Will Dunn get more than 1 minute? Who else is there? Will Barbeary be thrown into the front row (surely not!)? Props I think are pretty set with Genge/Obano and Stuart/West/Williams but where will Marler be?

I reckon Youngs would have gone whether or not for his recent purple patch. Will Robson just step in? Or will we have a look at Randall and Mitchell?

I can't imagine Slade going with the Lions, but who knows? If he does surely Lawrence gets some time? I cam definitely see Umaga getting some time at 12 either way.

Back three there's loads of options with or without Daly (as with Billy I hope Daly is picked despite not really deserving it). Malins is surely odds on to solidify his position at 15 but can we also have a look at Steward & Parton? I reckon Odogwu will be seen as a winger exclusively. Who else? Thorley? Cokanisiga? Hassell-Collins? McConnochie?

[chris1850]

Curry pretty nailed on

[Bored Falcon]

I can't imagine Gatland picking Ford tbh. Although he deserves to go.

If he'sfir Barbeaey will play as a six.

Smith will play as I don't see the point of playing Ford. I'd stick Robson at SH with Randell coming off the bench. as much to have some experience inside Smith.

if have Marchant at 13.

Wings are a funny one for me as not sure who is pushing for a place. Hassel Collins, Radwan, Sleighthome? really struggling to name any. Are there any U20s outside Joespeh worth a look

[fivepointer]

Its USA, Canada and Scotland in June. The tour should be all about development.
Irrespective of who goes on the Jamboree, we should looking to leave most of the current squad at home, along with a few others who are injured.
Make Ewels captain, include Malins, Odogwu, Marchant, Lawrence, Obano, Martin, Ribbans and Earl from the current 6Ns squad. Add in Smith, J Simmonds, Dombrandt, Randall, Dunn, Hill, Barbeary, Heyes, Thorley plus a smattering of form youngsters.

[FKAS]

If we're talking the England summer tour to USA and Canada I wouldn't take any player that's played in the ANC and 6N apart from maybe Lawrence.

Robson, there's no point he's 29 and not good enough. Send Mitchell, Randall and one other. Give a rare summer off to those that don't go with the Lions, let them have a pre season. Plus by bringing in and blooding much broader selection you are going to make the pool of possible selections much bigger for the Autumn and have more players ingrained in the system Eddie wants to play.

Falcon, back three Hassell-Collins, Parton, Steward, Radwan, Hodge, Thorley, Murley there's a few. Possibly Odogwu if he's considered more wing that centre.

Off the top of my head, not necessarily in selection order;
1. Obano, West
2. Dunn, Barbeary, Singleton
3. Heyes, Williams
4. Beaumont, Martin
5. Ribbans, Isiekwe
6. Hill, Ludlam
7. Evans, Ludlow
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Randall, Mitchell, Maunder
10. Smith, Simmonds
11. Thorley, Hassell-Collins
12. Lawrence, S James
13. Marchant, Odogwu
14. Parton, Radwan
15. Steward, Hodge

What's that 32 and it's normally a 34 man squad so room for two more. Dunn to captain.

[FKAS]

Ah Piers O'Connor would find room for him somewhere.

[Scrumhead]

It could be a brilliant opportunity to test our depth and give some players important game time in the positions where we’re weak.

Lions selection is a lottery IMO. I expect us to lose a fair few, but as Dan has said, there aren’t too many absolute certainties.

I’d go for something like:

1. E. Genge / B. Obano
2. T. Dunn / W. Capon
3. W. Stuart / J. Heyes
4. C. Ewels / J. Hill
5. J. Launchbury (captain) / D. Ribbans
6. T. Hill / A. Barbeary
7. B. Earl / W. Evans
8. S. Simmonds / A. Dombrandt
9. H. Randall / A. Mitchell
10. M. Smith / J. Simmonds
11. O. Thorley / O. Hassell-Collins
12. O. Lawrence / O. Devoto
13. J. Marchant / P. O’Conor
14. P. Odogwu / N. David
15. M. Malins / F. Steward

No way that’s what we’ll get, but I’d rather see us skip Robson for Randall and Mitchell or even take a big punt on Quirke or JvP.

Similarly, I don’t see the point in taking Williams when he’s never really shown that he’s likely to challenge to be first choice. Heyes is a superior athlete and steadily improving.

I’m tempted by the idea of Naulago as a wildcard but I’m not really in favour of picking players with dubious claims to represent England.

7 is a tricky one - I’d like to see what Earl can do as a starter but I think Will Evans deserves recognition for an amazing season - particularly given that Ludlam and Ben Curry’s seasons have been hit by injury.

[Tom Moore]

Malins
Steward

Thorley
Naulago
Cokanasiga
Hassell- Collins

Odogwu
Lawrence
O'Conor
Marchant

Smith
J Simmonds
Umagu

Mitchell
Randall
Quirke

Genge
Obano
VRR

Dunn
Barbeary
Oghre

Stuart
Painter
Heyes


Ewels
Isiekwe
Ribbans
Martin

Hill
Earl
B Curry
Ludlam
Dombrandt
S Simmonds

[Scrumhead]

It could be a brilliant opportunity to test our depth and give some players important game time in the positions where we’re weak.

Lions selection is a lottery IMO. I expect us to lose a fair few, but as Dan has said, there aren’t too many absolute certainties.

I’d go for something like:

1. E. Genge / B. Obano
2. T. Dunn / W. Capon
3. W. Stuart / J. Heyes
4. C. Ewels / J. Hill
5. J. Launchbury (captain) / D. Ribbans
6. T. Hill / A. Barbeary
7. B. Earl / W. Evans
8. S. Simmonds / A. Dombrandt
9. H. Randall / A. Mitchell
10. M. Smith / J. Simmonds
11. O. Thorley / O. Hassell-Collins
12. O. Lawrence / O. Devoto
13. J. Marchant / P. O’Conor
14. P. Odogwu / N. David
15. M. Malins / F. Steward

No way that’s what we’ll get, but I’d rather see us skip Robson for Randall and Mitchell or even take a big punt on Quirke or JvP.

Similarly, I don’t see the point in taking Williams when he’s never really shown that he’s likely to challenge to be first choice. Heyes is a superior athlete and steadily improving.

I’m tempted by the idea of Naulago as a wildcard but I’m not really in favour of picking players with dubious claims to represent England.

7 is a tricky one - I’d like to see what Earl can do as a starter but I think Will Evans deserves recognition for an amazing season - particularly given that Ludlam and Ben Curry’s seasons have been hit by injury.

If it’s 34, I’d add Isiekwe, Martin, Loader and another hooker ... not sure who though? I rate McGuigan and Blamire and Newcastle but I’m not sure I can see either playing for England right now?

If we’re going to give Simmonds a go at 8, playing Hill, Martin or Isiekwe at 6 and Earl at 7 could be a bit closer to the model Exeter have.

[Oakboy]

Langdon would be my first name. Looks quality at 2.

[Dan. Dan. Dan.]

I imagine Simmonds will be seen as a flanker or 'wing forward under the England system.
A bit like Odogwu as a centre, I just think the difference in systems means a positional change if not necessarily too big a role change.

I'd definitely love to see a completely developmental squad, but we all know its not going to happen! Ford will be captain, Slade will be there along with Wilson, Launch and/or Lawes, possibly Daly. I just really do hope that Randall and Mitchell get a fair shout above Robson!

[FKAS]

Similarly, I don’t see the point in taking Williams when he’s never really shown that he’s likely to challenge to be first choice. Heyes is a superior athlete and steadily improving.

I included Williams with the thought that he'd be used off the bench with West to ensure that Barbeary was given a solid front row at scrum time so that he could ease his way in to international rugby and be able to have the best chance to do his thing.

Obano, Dunn, Heyes as the starting front row should provide chances that are owed and be able to play the England game plan. I wouldn't take Genge who's admitted to struggling in the bubble and who has a little baby at home. Give him the summer off and develop the depth at loosehead as there's no guarantee we'll be able to rely on Marler again.

[Banquo]

Is May a nailed on Lion? I'm not sure.

[Banquo]

If we're talking the England summer tour to USA and Canada I wouldn't take any player that's played in the ANC and 6N apart from maybe Lawrence.

Robson, there's no point he's 29 and not good enough. Send Mitchell, Randall and one other. Give a rare summer off to those that don't go with the Lions, let them have a pre season. Plus by bringing in and blooding much broader selection you are going to make the pool of possible selections much bigger for the Autumn and have more players ingrained in the system Eddie wants to play.

Falcon, back three Hassell-Collins, Parton, Steward, Radwan, Hodge, Thorley, Murley there's a few. Possibly Odogwu if he's considered more wing that centre.

Off the top of my head, not necessarily in selection order;
1. Obano, West
2. Dunn, Barbeary, Singleton
3. Heyes, Williams
4. Beaumont, Martin
5. Ribbans, Isiekwe
6. Hill, Ludlam
7. Evans, Ludlow
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Randall, Mitchell, Maunder
10. Smith, Simmonds
11. Thorley, Hassell-Collins
12. Lawrence, S James
13. Marchant, Odogwu
14. Parton, Radwan
15. Steward, Hodge

What's that 32 and it's normally a 34 man squad so room for two more. Dunn to captain.

Josh Beaumont is also 29, if that's who you mean. I think Painter is worth a look, also Freeman and Dingwall, and maybe even Coles who is developing rapidly- mind, I'm a bit biased as all have come through my club.

[FKAS]

If we're talking the England summer tour to USA and Canada I wouldn't take any player that's played in the ANC and 6N apart from maybe Lawrence.

Robson, there's no point he's 29 and not good enough. Send Mitchell, Randall and one other. Give a rare summer off to those that don't go with the Lions, let them have a pre season. Plus by bringing in and blooding much broader selection you are going to make the pool of possible selections much bigger for the Autumn and have more players ingrained in the system Eddie wants to play.

Falcon, back three Hassell-Collins, Parton, Steward, Radwan, Hodge, Thorley, Murley there's a few. Possibly Odogwu if he's considered more wing that centre.

Off the top of my head, not necessarily in selection order;
1. Obano, West
2. Dunn, Barbeary, Singleton
3. Heyes, Williams
4. Beaumont, Martin
5. Ribbans, Isiekwe
6. Hill, Ludlam
7. Evans, Ludlow
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Randall, Mitchell, Maunder
10. Smith, Simmonds
11. Thorley, Hassell-Collins
12. Lawrence, S James
13. Marchant, Odogwu
14. Parton, Radwan
15. Steward, Hodge

What's that 32 and it's normally a 34 man squad so room for two more. Dunn to captain.

Josh Beaumont is also 29, if that's who you mean. I think Painter is worth a look, also Freeman and Dingwall, and maybe even Coles who is developing rapidly- mind, I'm a bit biased as all have come through my club.

Josh Beaumont is 27 and I picked him to a similar reason I'd have Williams and Dunn in there. He's a good performing Prem player that will add solidity to the tight five. He's very good at the lineout and carries well. You'd probably look at balance and maybe start Ribbans and Martin or Ribbans and Isiekwe with Martin at 6. Dunn is a great thrower so the lineout should work nicely and Dunn is solid scrum time which is ideal next to the young guy Heyes. When Barbeary comes on you bring on the experienced Williams and Beaumont with him to make scrums and lineouts easier for him. Give the young guys with masses of promise a really solid platform from which to show their skills. Plus you can have both hookers playing with their club mate looseheads.

I nearly included Freeman with the back three options. He's got a lot of promise, Hodge was the possible omission for Malins or Freeman. I don't follow Saints closely but Painter seems to be in and out the side and hasn't really pulled up trees. From the limited amount I've seen of Saints I'd say Hill is closer a call up but I'm happy to be corrected.

I like Dingwall because he's a defensive organiser he's just up against some really explosive attacking options. If he can add more attacking threat or tactical kicking to his game he'd push up his credentials for selection.

[Digby]

I didn't even realise Naulago was EQP, but even if so why pick a 30 year old for a development tour?

[Puja]

I'd say this tour should be simply to inculcate potential RWC candidates into the England way of doing things - fitness and understanding the shapes and movements - so that they can slip straight into the EPS without having to spend an international window acclimatising and learning. There's no great value to be got from most of the tests - impressing against the USA doesn't mean anything for a real test and I suspect it'll be Scotland A in effect if not name - so it's not a chance to force a way into the XV so much as an extended training camp.

With that in mind, the first names would be Randall, Mitchell, Quirke, and JVP to audition for the 21 shirt in 2021 and be competition for the 9 onwards. I would also expect a lot of people not going with the Lions to go so that standards are set and people are slotting in rather than having a scratch side.

I'd say Barbeary and Martin are also straight in, with Odogwu and West probable other first picks. I don't know Steward will be - he's such a different fullback to the rest of them that I think Eddie will go Freeman and Furbank first.

Puja

[chris1850]

Keep an eye on Bevan Rodd as well. Developing very quickly and probably Sales first choice loosehead at the moment

[Banquo]

If we're talking the England summer tour to USA and Canada I wouldn't take any player that's played in the ANC and 6N apart from maybe Lawrence.

Robson, there's no point he's 29 and not good enough. Send Mitchell, Randall and one other. Give a rare summer off to those that don't go with the Lions, let them have a pre season. Plus by bringing in and blooding much broader selection you are going to make the pool of possible selections much bigger for the Autumn and have more players ingrained in the system Eddie wants to play.

Falcon, back three Hassell-Collins, Parton, Steward, Radwan, Hodge, Thorley, Murley there's a few. Possibly Odogwu if he's considered more wing that centre.

Off the top of my head, not necessarily in selection order;
1. Obano, West
2. Dunn, Barbeary, Singleton
3. Heyes, Williams
4. Beaumont, Martin
5. Ribbans, Isiekwe
6. Hill, Ludlam
7. Evans, Ludlow
8. Dombrandt, Simmonds
9. Randall, Mitchell, Maunder
10. Smith, Simmonds
11. Thorley, Hassell-Collins
12. Lawrence, S James
13. Marchant, Odogwu
14. Parton, Radwan
15. Steward, Hodge

What's that 32 and it's normally a 34 man squad so room for two more. Dunn to captain.

Josh Beaumont is also 29, if that's who you mean. I think Painter is worth a look, also Freeman and Dingwall, and maybe even Coles who is developing rapidly- mind, I'm a bit biased as all have come through my club.

Josh Beaumont is 27 and I picked him to a similar reason I'd have Williams and Dunn in there. He's a good performing Prem player that will add solidity to the tight five. He's very good at the lineout and carries well. You'd probably look at balance and maybe start Ribbans and Martin or Ribbans and Isiekwe with Martin at 6. Dunn is a great thrower so the lineout should work nicely and Dunn is solid scrum time which is ideal next to the young guy Heyes. When Barbeary comes on you bring on the experienced Williams and Beaumont with him to make scrums and lineouts easier for him. Give the young guys with masses of promise a really solid platform from which to show their skills. Plus you can have both hookers playing with their club mate looseheads.

I nearly included Freeman with the back three options. He's got a lot of promise, Hodge was the possible omission for Malins or Freeman. I don't follow Saints closely but Painter seems to be in and out the side and hasn't really pulled up trees. From the limited amount I've seen of Saints I'd say Hill is closer a call up but I'm happy to be corrected.

I like Dingwall because he's a defensive organiser he's just up against some really explosive attacking options. If he can add more attacking threat or tactical kicking to his game he'd push up his credentials for selection.

on Beaumont hes 29 on Monday. He's been flitting between 8 and lock, and back from a big injury, not even sure he s starting for Sale tbh.
Painter is a better scrummager on his day than Hill- huge unit.
Dingwall hits great lines....kicking is ok, but not really a prioity for his kind of player

[Banquo]

I'd say this tour should be simply to inculcate potential RWC candidates into the England way of doing things - fitness and understanding the shapes and movements - so that they can slip straight into the EPS without having to spend an international window acclimatising and learning. There's no great value to be got from most of the tests - impressing against the USA doesn't mean anything for a real test and I suspect it'll be Scotland A in effect if not name - so it's not a chance to force a way into the XV so much as an extended training camp.

With that in mind, the first names would be Randall, Mitchell, Quirke, and JVP to audition for the 21 shirt in 2021 and be competition for the 9 onwards. I would also expect a lot of people not going with the Lions to go so that standards are set and people are slotting in rather than having a scratch side.

I'd say Barbeary and Martin are also straight in, with Odogwu and West probable other first picks. I don't know Steward will be - he's such a different fullback to the rest of them that I think Eddie will go Freeman and Furbank first.

Puja

Freeman and Steward are pretty similar id say

[Mikey Brown]

I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

[Banquo]

I’m still confused how we have a literal clone of one our truly world class players and don’t seem interested in developing him.

Is there really some enormous gulf between Tom and Ben (beyond the development done with England, which is obviously a huge amount at this point) that means it not worth a shot? I like both Evans and Ludlow but it feels like Ben Curry is almost being forgotten about just because Tom has progressed so much further/quicker.

fair point; Ben was iirc in pole position going into the Argentina tour.

[Raggs]

Ben is nowhere near as physical.

[Mikey Brown]

Ben is nowhere near as physical.

I've no doubt they are massively different players at this point, with Tom having had 3 years or so of development with England, but do you think Ben just isn't up to it in terms of raw materials? I've heard that he's less physical, (though he is also incredibly skilful and a leader at Sale) but never really managed to make that assessment for myself.

It just seems odd one twin is being spoken about as having a McCaw like career in front of him, and the other is so lacking that he's scrapping it out with Ludlow/Evans for a B team summer tour.

[Banquo]

Ben is nowhere near as physical.

Tom certainly has developed differently, no doubt by Eddie design.