What the Lions means for England

[Stom]

OK, so...English Lions tourists:

Mako
George, LCD
Itoje, Hill, Lawes
Curry
Simmonds
Farrell
Watson, Daly

So we know we need a new hooker and a couple of new locks.
Malins will keep his spot.
If Ford plays, he gets to do so without Farrell
We get to look at Cokanasiga if fit.

Would you change it up completely, or look to build?

[Blandy]

I'd be tempted to try a different fly half to Ford. From memory he's previous looked good playing without Farrell during Lions tours and it's not seen to of made any difference when Farrell is available again

[Banquo]

OK, so...English Lions tourists:

Mako
George, LCD
Itoje, Hill, Lawes
Curry
Simmonds
Farrell
Watson, Daly

So we know we need a new hooker and a couple of new locks.
Malins will keep his spot.
If Ford plays, he gets to do so without Farrell
We get to look at Cokanasiga if fit.

Would you change it up completely, or look to build?

Plus Youngs won't be available. I'd build, that gives newbies more of a chance.

[Raggs]

Genge, Obano, West? Rodd?
Dunn, Barbeary?, Capon?
Sink, Stuart, ?
Ewels, Ribbans, Coles, ?
Underhill, Wilson, Martin, Vunipola, ?

Youngs?, Robson, Randall, Mitchell
Ford, Umaga, Smith, Simmonds
May, Coka, Thorley
Devoto?, Lawrence
Slade, Odogwu
Hassell-Collins, Loader?
Malins, Steward, Freeman?

-------------

I'd keep as many seniors around as possible to be honest, only favouring new caps in places where the seniors are 3rd choice and older (like Dunn). That way you're genuinely looking at integration into the squad, rather than a run around for the kids.

[Digby]

Lions is a pretty good result for England, arguably only 6 live players going on tour

[Oakboy]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

[Raggs]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Why wouldn't Ford have an international future?

[Banquo]

Genge, Obano, West? Rodd?
Dunn, Barbeary?, Capon?
Sink, Stuart, ?
Ewels, Ribbans, Coles, ?
Underhill, Wilson, Martin, Vunipola, ?

Youngs?, Robson, Randall, Mitchell
Ford, Umaga, Smith, Simmonds
May, Coka, Thorley
Devoto?, Lawrence
Slade, Odogwu
Hassell-Collins, Loader?
Malins, Steward, Freeman?

-------------

I'd keep as many seniors around as possible to be honest, only favouring new caps in places where the seniors are 3rd choice and older (like Dunn). That way you're genuinely looking at integration into the squad, rather than a run around for the kids.

This. Though doubt Youngs would be available and prob should get a 'rest'. I'd have a look at Sleightholme, Dingwall and Piers O'Conor.

[Puja]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

[Banquo]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Why wouldn't Ford have an international future?

Or Slade.

[Oakboy]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Why wouldn't Ford have an international future?

Or Slade.

Oh, quite, but do any of us know what Jones's direction will be? Remember, he has previously talked about new ideas post-Lions.

[Raggs]

Why wouldn't Ford have an international future?

Or Slade.

Oh, quite, but do any of us know what Jones's direction will be? Remember, he has previously talked about new ideas post-Lions.

New ideas in attack, that we started seeing early anyway. And if we've no idea what his direction will be, then you may as well name every player and ask if they have an international future. It becomes a meaningless statement.

Genge, Obano, West? Rodd?
Dunn, Barbeary?, Capon?
Sink, Stuart, ?
Ewels, Ribbans, Coles, ?
Underhill, Wilson, Martin, Vunipola, ?

Youngs?, Robson, Randall, Mitchell
Ford, Umaga, Smith, Simmonds
May, Coka, Thorley
Devoto?, Lawrence
Slade, Odogwu
Hassell-Collins, Loader?
Malins, Steward, Freeman?

-------------

I'd keep as many seniors around as possible to be honest, only favouring new caps in places where the seniors are 3rd choice and older (like Dunn). That way you're genuinely looking at integration into the squad, rather than a run around for the kids.

This. Though doubt Youngs would be available and prob should get a 'rest'. I'd have a look at Sleightholme, Dingwall and Piers O'Conor.

Definitely agree with POC perhaps getting a look in. Sleightholme has looked handy too. good attitude.

I'm not sure if Youngs will be available or not, a couple of tests at twickers isn't the same as months away with the lions.

[Oakboy]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Again, I agree but will Jones take any notice of what happens in the Lions matches? If the three you choose to mention have starring roles will Jones retain/select accordingly? Conversely, if, say, Farrell and Mako have poor tours will he omit them.

I'd bet he will carry on in his own way.

[Banquo]

Or Slade.

Oh, quite, but do any of us know what Jones's direction will be? Remember, he has previously talked about new ideas post-Lions.

New ideas in attack, that we started seeing early anyway. And if we've no idea what his direction will be, then you may as well name every player and ask if they have an international future. It becomes a meaningless statement.

Genge, Obano, West? Rodd?
Dunn, Barbeary?, Capon?
Sink, Stuart, ?
Ewels, Ribbans, Coles, ?
Underhill, Wilson, Martin, Vunipola, ?

Youngs?, Robson, Randall, Mitchell
Ford, Umaga, Smith, Simmonds
May, Coka, Thorley
Devoto?, Lawrence
Slade, Odogwu
Hassell-Collins, Loader?
Malins, Steward, Freeman?

-------------

I'd keep as many seniors around as possible to be honest, only favouring new caps in places where the seniors are 3rd choice and older (like Dunn). That way you're genuinely looking at integration into the squad, rather than a run around for the kids.

This. Though doubt Youngs would be available and prob should get a 'rest'. I'd have a look at Sleightholme, Dingwall and Piers O'Conor.

Definitely agree with POC perhaps getting a look in. Sleightholme has looked handy too. good attitude.

I'm not sure if Youngs will be available or not, a couple of tests at twickers isn't the same as months away with the lions.

I do get that, but one assumes there will be a training camp....and also he should probably get a break.

[jngf]

Jones needs to take Dombrandt on this tour and also Ludlum. Also perhaps time to move Slade to fullback on a more long term basis? I’d also be tempted to see what Underhill can do at 6 and/or 8 (rather than keeping him as a 6.5 doing a 7s job - freeing up the chance to see what Earl can do in that 7 role as a starter rather than just an impact sub)

[Banquo]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Again, I agree but will Jones take any notice of what happens in the Lions matches? If the three you choose to mention have starring roles will Jones retain/select accordingly? Conversely, if, say, Farrell and Mako have poor tours will he omit them.

I'd bet he will carry on in his own way.

who else's way would he carry on with?

He materially changed how we played between last spring, autumn and this time round, so I'm a bit puzzled by your commentary tbh.

[Banquo]

Jones needs to take Dombrandt on this tour and also Ludlum. Also perhaps time to move Slade to fullback on a more long term basis?

Slade isn't about to start playing 15 for his club, so not sure how that works. Ludlam has a great work rate, but looks short of intl level for me.

[Oakboy]

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Again, I agree but will Jones take any notice of what happens in the Lions matches? If the three you choose to mention have starring roles will Jones retain/select accordingly? Conversely, if, say, Farrell and Mako have poor tours will he omit them.

I'd bet he will carry on in his own way.

who else's way would he carry on with?

He materially changed how we played between last spring, autumn and this time round, so I'm a bit puzzled by your commentary tbh.

[fivepointer]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Next to nothing for established players but fringe and new players would benefit. For that reason i'd be inclined to stand down most of the established players like Ford, Youngs, Slade, Wilson, Sinckler, Underhill and May, prefferring we exposed Smith, Mitchell, Randall, Odogwu, O'Conor, Heyes, Dombrandt and Ribbans to international rugby and invested more game time in Malins, Lawrence, Stuart, Obano, Dunn, Martin and T Hill.

[Oakboy]

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Again, I agree but will Jones take any notice of what happens in the Lions matches? If the three you choose to mention have starring roles will Jones retain/select accordingly? Conversely, if, say, Farrell and Mako have poor tours will he omit them.

I'd bet he will carry on in his own way.

who else's way would he carry on with?

He materially changed how we played between last spring, autumn and this time round, so I'm a bit puzzled by your commentary tbh.

Ah, Banquo, I don't want to go there really. I see it as contextual. He lost badly to SA with his first choice game plan. Then he disappeared into his shell with a horrendous kick-orientated version and scraped the Autumn thing. Mark 3 method produced one of our all-time worst 6Ns in terms of results. Now, players that he has rejected, Gatland has selected. I just think there are more questions than answers as a more or less constant theme.

[Raggs]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Next to nothing for established players but fringe and new players would benefit. For that reason i'd be inclined to stand down most of the established players like Ford, Youngs, Slade, Wilson, Sinckler, Underhill and May, prefferring we exposed Smith, Mitchell, Randall, Odogwu, O'Conor, Heyes, Dombrandt and Ribbans to international rugby and invested more game time in Malins, Lawrence, Stuart, Obano, Dunn, Martin and T Hill.

But what benefit is it to the fringe players if they're not integrating and playing alongside the seniors?

[Puja]

I think it will be fascinating to see how Jones reacts, selection-wise. I'd look to the future as much as possible but will he stick to his guns as stubbornly as normal. For example, do the likes of May, Ewels, Slade, Tuilagi, Billy V and Ford have an international future and, if so, would it do them and the team unit good to include them this summer?

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Next to nothing for established players but fringe and new players would benefit. For that reason i'd be inclined to stand down most of the established players like Ford, Youngs, Slade, Wilson, Sinckler, Underhill and May, prefferring we exposed Smith, Mitchell, Randall, Odogwu, O'Conor, Heyes, Dombrandt and Ribbans to international rugby and invested more game time in Malins, Lawrence, Stuart, Obano, Dunn, Martin and T Hill.

But, being realistic, is playing the USA at Twickenham likely to be more of a challenge for the likes of Smith than playing Exeter or Racing 92? Will he gain much from starring in a 50 point thumping of an outclassed side? Will we learn whether he can play top level international rugby?

It's like someone starring in the Barbarians match - any dominating performance is always asterisked with the quality of the opposition and the fact that we weren't taking it massively seriously.

Puja

[Adam_P]

I think 9 would be my major priority for getting some of the high quality youngsters in - we involved Robson far too late and I think we're best forgetting him, he's never going to be starting 9. Get Mitchell and Randall both in as starter/bench for the summer.

[Banquo]

Of course, possibly, probably, definitely, probably, and why the f*ck is that even a question.

I still don't see the summer tests as being of much value at all to England except for player capture. What value will a good game against the USA have in terms of knowing if a player can cut it at the top level? In terms of learning things, I think we might get more from seeing if Daly can be rehabilitated with a new environment and if Jonny Hill or Simmonds have international futures.

Puja

Next to nothing for established players but fringe and new players would benefit. For that reason i'd be inclined to stand down most of the established players like Ford, Youngs, Slade, Wilson, Sinckler, Underhill and May, prefferring we exposed Smith, Mitchell, Randall, Odogwu, O'Conor, Heyes, Dombrandt and Ribbans to international rugby and invested more game time in Malins, Lawrence, Stuart, Obano, Dunn, Martin and T Hill.

But what benefit is it to the fringe players if they're not integrating and playing alongside the seniors?

well put.

[Banquo]

Again, I agree but will Jones take any notice of what happens in the Lions matches? If the three you choose to mention have starring roles will Jones retain/select accordingly? Conversely, if, say, Farrell and Mako have poor tours will he omit them.

I'd bet he will carry on in his own way.

who else's way would he carry on with?

He materially changed how we played between last spring, autumn and this time round, so I'm a bit puzzled by your commentary tbh.

Ah, Banquo, I don't want to go there really. I see it as contextual. He lost badly to SA with his first choice game plan. Then he disappeared into his shell with a horrendous kick-orientated version and scraped the Autumn thing. Mark 3 method produced one of our all-time worst 6Ns in terms of results. Now, players that he has rejected, Gatland has selected. I just think there are more questions than answers as a more or less constant theme.

Mark 3 method was somewhat scuppered by the players ill-discipline....which he is accountable for and needs to fix.

There generally are a lot of questions in a complex team sport.