How to re-integrate Sam Simmonds into England back row?

[jngf]

I am hoping Sam Simmonds has a great Lions Tour and there would undoubtedly be increased pressure for Jones to bring him back into the England starting XV post such success. Does present the question who do you best combine him in a future England backrow with (regardless of whether he plays 8 or for that matter 7 or even 6)?

He brings a lot to the party with the exception of being:

- a noted poacher/fetcher (though I suspect he could do this effectively if called upon)

- a noted lineout jumper

- a hard yards carrier in tight traffic in way Billy or (to a slightly lesser extent) Lawes is

[Mellsblue]

Beer pong is good for breaking the ice. As long as it’s not the one used on training courses where you have to tell them an interesting fact about yourself that nobody would be able to guess. I hate that.

[Digby]

Beer pong is good for breaking the ice. As long as it’s not the one used on training courses where you have to tell them an interesting fact about yourself that nobody would be able to guess. I hate that.

"The first time I set out to kill someone I was 14" works brilliantly in such situations

And you're welcome

[Mellsblue]

Beer pong is good for breaking the ice. As long as it’s not the one used on training courses where you have to tell them an interesting fact about yourself that nobody would be able to guess. I hate that.

"The first time I set out to kill someone I was 14" works brilliantly in such situations

And you're welcome

Annoyingly, that made me lol.

[Scrumhead]

I am hoping Sam Simmonds has a great Lions Tour and there would undoubtedly be increased pressure for Jones to bring him back into the England starting XV post such success. Does present the question who do you best combine him in a future England backrow with (regardless of whether he plays 8 or for that matter 7 or even 6)?

He brings a lot to the party with the exception of being:

- a noted poacher/fetcher (though I suspect he could do this effectively if called upon)

- a noted lineout jumper

- a hard yards carrier in tight traffic in way Billy or (to a slightly lesser extent) Lawes is

I’ll give you a response.

I also hope he has a great Lions tour. I do have question marks over his effectiveness outside of the Exeter system but he has some stand-out qualities and seems to be a good bloke, so I’m here to be convinced.

It could be done but as always, it’s about balance. Hill, Martin and Reid have a great chance to lay down a marker as the PSdT-style blindside I think Eddie has always been looking for (hence Lawes and Itoje having been used at 6). If one of those three makes a compelling enough case to start on a regular basis, they become the main lineout option in the back three and take on the hard yards carrying which makes the prospect of Simmonds starting at 8 easier to accommodate.

I wouldn’t want to go full Exeter and pick two of them though. Also worth Exeter’s back row don’t really bother with trying to jackal. They prioritise the lineout and smashing the breakdown (with dubious legality I might add).

I prefer at least some ability to hunt for turnovers and I’d argue that at 7, Curry or Willis are then able to offer the breakdown threat as well as being decent carriers and lineout operators (Underhill slightly behind due to the lack of lineout capability).

[Danno]

Mince him up, feed him to the Curry twins.

Much like Scrumhead soooort of said, he's an incredible player, but he's playing in the Chief's systems. Translating what Chiefs do to the international game won't always work and we've seen that fail before. In my view he's a centre playing brilliantly at 8 because of the Exe pack making the platform for him.

Tldr: he's great, but Exeter forwards are weird.

[Scrumhead]

Indeed. Even when you say ‘playing 8’, you might argue he’s actually just wearing a shirt with an 8 on it and packing down at the base of the scrum.

Outside of the set piece he doesn’t stand where you’d typically expect an 8 to be. As you say, he’s more like a third centre for anything more than 10-15m out. Rugby Pass had a couple of articles with Baxter talking about how they created the system for his skill set a couple of weeks ago.

[Scrumhead]

I wrote this on another forum when he broke the try-scoring record. Here you go:

Rugby Pass have posted a couple of articles on Simmonds this week:

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/once-sam ... -simmonds/

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/on-certa ... ds-exeter/

He is without doubt a very good player and 50 tries in 66 appearances is a phenomenal record for any position, let alone an 8. However, these articles really underline that the Exeter system is deliberately set up for him, which I very much doubt would happen with the Lions or with a England.

Key quote from Rob Baxter (slight bit of paraphrasing): “Rob Hunter talks a lot with every player we have here as a forward, putting combinations together about understanding your role within a team as a pack of forwards. Sam has got a deep understanding of his role ... but you have got seven other forwards in that pack who understand his role well.”

That’s fine and dandy at club level where that understanding can be honed and developed over an extended period of time. I don’t think that can be done to the same degree in an international set-up and I think it would be almost impossible for the Lions where they’re pulling together a group in a short space of time.

Also, while he’s rightly being recognised for his try scoring, this creates a false perception of what a number 8s job is. In more or less any other team, the 8 would not be scoring those tries because they’d be doing other jobs. The media paints a picture that it’s a simple choice between Sam Simmonds who is a try scoring machine vs. Billy Vunipola who is not, which is really missing the point.

I’m not suggesting he is a one trick pony. I’m just saying that’s how it’s currently being portrayed. It’s also impossible to fairly judge him on things he doesn’t get involved in at the moment

He’s a good, energetic defender and makes his tackles but that’s pretty much minimum expectation for a back row player.

The Exeter system means he’s not performing the role of a number 8 outside of the scrum. He’s more or less used as a third centre - Ali Hepher even described him as being ‘like an 8th back’. It was meant in a positive way but it does highlight how different their approach is to most other teams.

The reality is that it’s hard to compare him to other Number 8s as they’re performing fundamentally different roles and IMO, we can’t really consider him as a flanker when he’s not performing that role either. He does clear rucks etc. and is decent over the ball, albeit without being a notable threat as a jackal. You could argue that he might do more of those things if given a different role, but then how can we judge him against players who are doing that as their core role?

It’s strange - the Exeter system is great for him at club level and definitely highlights his strengths, but it’s so different to the way pretty much any other teams set-up their back row so it makes it hard to figure out how he fits in to another system.

I know people have mooted him as the best 12 in England in a tongue in cheek way, but he’s arguably got as much in common with the centres than he has with back row players in the Exeter set up.

[Mikey Brown]

I think people make a way bigger deal out of his unconventional 8 role than there needs to be, to be honest.

8 is a position that a ton of teams mess around with tactically or positionally, though I agree he does look at times like he could be a quality centre.

The try-scoring thing is a bit of a red herring too. You’d think he’s simply scored a bunch of Ashton-esque walkovers by swanning around on the wing by the way people talk about his inability to be effective in tight carrying situations. Yet time and again we see him get past defenders that should presumably be flinging him in to the stands.

I just think Eddie doesn’t rate him. Also have this feeling from some of his celebrations maybe he’s got a bit of an ego? May be way off the mark with that one though.

[fivepointer]

He'd be integrated into the squad at least if Jones wanted him to be. A balance could be found and he could be accommodated. Plainly he has the skills, the fitness and the durability, and i'd be astonished if he couldn't adapt his game to whatever team he was playing in. It would be just whether the coach wants him to play. He doesn't.

[Banquo]

He'd be integrated into the squad at least if Jones wanted him to be. A balance could be found and he could be accommodated. Plainly he has the skills, the fitness and the durability, and i'd be astonished if he couldn't adapt his game to whatever team he was playing in. It would be just whether the coach wants him to play. He doesn't.

As before, he basically doesn't currently rate him as highly as others, and I think its about personality as much as anything. Eddie isn't actually shy about changing how the back row plays and respective roles.

[fivepointer]

Its more likely that than where Simmonds plays, or how he fits into the "Exeter system". If you rub the coach up the wrong way, then you're not going to get picked.

[Raggs]

Why is it more likely that?

Simmonds may well be capable of playing a proper backrow style, but he has virtually 0 body of work showing it. Let him do it for the lions and then awesome!

People have been calling for us to look to alternatives to Billy, because his style is really tough to replace, but now folks are seemingly championing rearranging our pack and backrow, to fit around a single player...

[fivepointer]

He has a large body of work showing he is a high quality rugby player. The stats and his performances speak for themselves. He is very obviously a high class, consistently effective performer. Based on what he has produced for his club, he should be in the England squad at the very least.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Exeters success and way they operate is also the undoing of players making England, the same applied to Armand the other season when he was flavour of the month. There was a very good indepth look at how Armand operated at 7 compared to the other 7s in favour and across the Premiership at the time and why he didn't fit the mould of being an England number 7 player. I cant for th elife of me remember who wrote it and where it was now though.
On the other hand hypothetically speaking if Baxter was to take on the role as England coach would the Exeter system work against the AB's, Boks etc etc?

[Which Tyler]

On the other hand hypothetically speaking if Baxter was to take on the role as England coach would the Exeter system work against the AB's, Boks etc etc?

I don't think so.
A] It needs too muh lead time, and time with the players - which simply isn't an option at international level.
B] It works largely through novelty value - when you're preparing your team to face 14-15 opponents in the year, there's only so much time you an spend combatting a system only one of them uses - not the same when preparing for a group of 3-5 matches.
C] I need more evidence that it works at elite club level

[Scrumhead]

Why is it more likely that?

Simmonds may well be capable of playing a proper backrow style, but he has virtually 0 body of work showing it. Let him do it for the lions and then awesome!

People have been calling for us to look to alternatives to Billy, because his style is really tough to replace, but now folks are seemingly championing rearranging our pack and backrow, to fit around a single player...

100% agree.

IMO, Simmonds absolutely deserves to be in the squad, but sometimes it’s not as straightforward as picking the best 15 players. I’d be looking at him solely as an impact sub at this stage. If you start it him it’s too much of a question of ‘where do you pick him?’ and ‘what compromises does that require?’.

As Raggs has said, if he is successful in a more traditional back row unit, I’d be more than happy to change my opinion.

Right now, I don’t want to pick someone at 8 who, for the most part, doesn’t do the jobs I need my 8 to cover.

[Mikey Brown]

This feels like the beginnings of an epic 35 page argument.

I'd say the 8 role is the most versatile on the pitch. Do Read or Faletau get these question marks over their heads because they stand out in the wide pods on phase play. When does a role like theirs stop being a "proper backrow style"?

[Doorzetbornandbred]

On the other hand hypothetically speaking if Baxter was to take on the role as England coach would the Exeter system work against the AB's, Boks etc etc?

I don't think so.
A] It needs too muh lead time, and time with the players - which simply isn't an option at international level.
B] It works largely through novelty value - when you're preparing your team to face 14-15 opponents in the year, there's only so much time you an spend combatting a system only one of them uses - not the same when preparing for a group of 3-5 matches.
C] I need more evidence that it works at elite club level

I agree with you, I was just asking the question.

Point C you made, I think it is at its ceiling of effectiveness in the Premiership imo. The next couple seasons will be telling for Chiefs I think. A lot of players will be gone or past their best, whats coming through I dont think is as good as their golden generation of LCD etc. The other issue they have is the number of players with big potential they've signed not EQP but Welsh lads.

[Mellsblue]

Yep. Big few seasons for Baxter. Can he evolve the playing staff and the rugby on the pitch to keep them at the top? Not that he seems to be interested, but I’ve always said I’d like him to go to another club and succeed before being Eng HC but keeping Exe at the top for the next 5 years would be the next best thing. I think it’ll be a big challenge as I see rugby evolving away from what makes them successful and being the hunted is completely different to being the hunter.

[Scrumhead]

This feels like the beginnings of an epic 35 page argument.

I'd say the 8 role is the most versatile on the pitch. Do Read or Faletau get these question marks over their heads because they stand out in the wide pods on phase play. When does a role like theirs stop being a "proper backrow style"?

I appreciate 8s can be used in different ways, but Read or Faletau popping up in a wide channel on phase play doesn’t mean they’re absolved of their other responsibilities. Simmonds is only a forward for the set piece, beyond that, he’s pretty much excused of anything to do with the ruck/breakdown. That’s when he stops being an 8 and becomes something different.

I literally posted a whole article where Rob Baxter talks about how they developed a system for Simmonds and another where Ali Helpher talks about him being an ‘eighth back’. I’m not making it up.

[Banquo]

Why is it more likely that?

Simmonds may well be capable of playing a proper backrow style, but he has virtually 0 body of work showing it. Let him do it for the lions and then awesome!

People have been calling for us to look to alternatives to Billy, because his style is really tough to replace, but now folks are seemingly championing rearranging our pack and backrow, to fit around a single player...

1- Because that's exactly what Eddie was hinting at in his interview, and noticeably ducked the question on Simmonds playing style and what he needed to show to get in the England squad
2- yes he is imo, but its a fair point when in conjunction with Scrumheads interview that he is so keen for Mikey to read.
3- Eddie has plenty of previous in rearranging our back row, both in changing out the old guard and old style to replacing Billy with Wilson and Curry, and playing Lawes and Itoje (I think ) at 6.....when Curry and Underhill aren't both available (or even when they are and Billy is out) the plan has to change. Besides, I'm not sure anyone is actively saying...lets play like Exeter. I think the suggestion is that Simmonds would be worthy of a squad place, given- and I understand the arguments- he has been the most eye catching EQP backrow in the prem for a while now.

It will be absolutely fascinating to see what Gatland does with him, as the way he plays for Exeter is nothing like the way Faletau plays.
I have said for a while that Eddie has had a good look at Simmonds close up, and he hasn't loved what he's seen; maybe I'm using that interview as confirmation bias though.

[TheNomad]

It's interesting - I obviously rate Sam Simmonds, but of all the questions about our back row, 'How we integrate Sam Simmonds' isn't very high among them.

Long term I think we'd be better served asking about: the balance we want from the back row, whether we want a PsdT style enforcer, whether we want a Billy-style 8, how/if we want to incorporate Jack Willis, whether two Currys would be too similar, whether we want a more aggressive 3rd jumper option, what Hill could bring at 6 and what it mean for other options....

These, for me, are more interesting questions

[Banquo]

It's interesting - I obviously rate Sam Simmonds, but of all the questions about our back row, 'How we integrate Sam Simmonds' isn't very high among them.

Long term I think we'd be better served asking about: the balance we want from the back row, whether we want a PsdT style enforcer, whether we want a Billy-style 8, how/if we want to incorporate Jack Willis, whether two Currys would be too similar, whether we want a more aggressive 3rd jumper option, what Hill could bring at 6 and what it mean for other options....

These, for me, are more interesting questions

Well yes and I'm not sure Eddie is sure either, as when Curry and Underhill are both fit, he plays them iirc. I also don't like the idea of trying to shoe horn players into roles. There's also always a bit of chicken and egg in these things, because of the balance of the rest of the team and what the primary game plans and tactics look like- that's why Curry T is so useful amongst other things.

[Digby]

Simmonds needs to show he can carry tighter, find the same impact on carrying when you don't have the same number of soft shoulders at test level Vs club rugby, and show he can do it other than just on fast SA pitches even if he has an impressive jamboree tour. Maybe he'll get those chances. I don't think I'd quite go with 'deserve' them because I don't quite like that way of thinking, but it is getting to (or even at) a point where not looking at him isn't going to make sense to the players when he keeps doing so well