Quins and Exeter Changes needed?

[Doorzetbornandbred]

After that final yesterday which was up there with the all time great games of rugby it got me thinking.
Quins are allegedly going to sign Tabai Matson as Head Coach, do they need to sign him? If they do will he change things? I personally dont think he will as hes out of the Wayne Smith empowered player era at the Crusaders so itll be more of the same imo. From a pretty reliable source when Matson and Blackadder were at Bath the players couldnt buy into the servant leadership empowering the players. It looks like Quins are already on that wavelength doing it very well.
Exeter Im the first to admit Im far from a fan of theirs, I will acknowledge though they have achieved great things. My question is though what do they need to change to really be spoken of with the likes of Sarries, Leicester, Leinster, Munster, Toulon, Toulouse etc as true European powerhouses? Have they reached their peak with what they have? Do they need a refresh with some key positions? Does the coaching set up need tweaking? Is the game shifting away from their power based rugby? Can they adapt quick enough (if needed to) before becoming a mid table 'so so' team?
Is all the above bollox? Interested to know peoples opinions.

[FKAS]

Hmm Blackadder for me is a seriously overrated coach failing to get the most from a ridiculously talented Crusaders team and then accomplish anything with a good Bath side (though that is somewhat endemic).

Quins really don't need a new DOR and anyone taking the job had best not have any ideas about trying to change anything because it seems there is a Quins way that works and anything else just causes infighting. The belligerent old guard that still number some of their best players have indoctrinated the best youngsters in this method of play as well. Quins could save themselves tens of thousands of pounds a year by merely keep the set up that's just won them them the league but that would be far too much like commonsense.

Exeter, I think they do need a freshen up. No need for revolution though they've cleverly acquired a number of bright young talents that should come through and offer what they need. As more of them come through and offer some more sparkle to their backline we should see them add a bit more edge to their game. Maybe they were just a little to safe in the final and they certainly missed Ewers and Skinner. Had they had the commonsense to kick the ball out rather than keep kicking it back to Quins whilst Cuthbert couldn't walk they might have won the final.

[Doorzetbornandbred]

Hmm Blackadder for me is a seriously overrated coach failing to get the most from a ridiculously talented Crusaders team and then accomplish anything with a good Bath side (though that is somewhat endemic).

Quins really don't need a new DOR and anyone taking the job had best not have any ideas about trying to change anything because it seems there is a Quins way that works and anything else just causes infighting. The belligerent old guard that still number some of their best players have indoctrinated the best youngsters in this method of play as well. Quins could save themselves tens of thousands of pounds a year by merely keep the set up that's just won them them the league but that would be far too much like commonsense.

Exeter, I think they do need a freshen up. No need for revolution though they've cleverly acquired a number of bright young talents that should come through and offer what they need. As more of them come through and offer some more sparkle to their backline we should see them add a bit more edge to their game. Maybe they were just a little to safe in the final and they certainly missed Ewers and Skinner. Had they had the commonsense to kick the ball out rather than keep kicking it back to Quins whilst Cuthbert couldn't walk they might have won the final.

I must admit I do wonder if Quins need to change anything. Exeter issue appears to be the set piece isnt what it was. Their scrum mindset is win a penalty first, Quins is scrum square and then get the ball out to Care and Co asap. Maybe Exeter need to change that idea and play rugby first.

[Puja]

I think Quins do need someone in charge - this season has been incredible, Boy's Own stuff, but they've ridden their luck and had incredible escapes and leaned very heavily on the squad camaraderie and leadership on a lot of occasions. Didn't they have three weeks in a row where they won with a last ditch try? It's all come together for an incredible title, but it's not a viable long term plan to keep trusting to that.

Tabai Matson does sound perfect for them with his Brian Ashton-like approach to player empowerment. Give them an overarching structure and direction while not changing too much of what makes them great.

As for Exeter, I don't really know. They definitely missed their many missing back row and were unlucky to come up against an inspired Quins team, so I can definitely see them winning more Premiership titles as they are. However, I can't see them being a dominant force in Europe - their game is just too limited and restrictive at the top level. I don't know how they fix that without a major retool.

Plus, I've really started to dislike them with the racism, plus the "we've investigated ourselves and it turns out we've decided we're not actually racist so it's fine," plus the COVID opinions. So I wouldn't mind if they changed from being annoying dickweasels. With Sarries humbled and Sale performing a heel-face-turn under Sanderson, they're the new league bad guys.

Puja

[Stom]

Hmm Blackadder for me is a seriously overrated coach failing to get the most from a ridiculously talented Crusaders team and then accomplish anything with a good Bath side (though that is somewhat endemic).

Quins really don't need a new DOR and anyone taking the job had best not have any ideas about trying to change anything because it seems there is a Quins way that works and anything else just causes infighting. The belligerent old guard that still number some of their best players have indoctrinated the best youngsters in this method of play as well. Quins could save themselves tens of thousands of pounds a year by merely keep the set up that's just won them them the league but that would be far too much like commonsense.

Exeter, I think they do need a freshen up. No need for revolution though they've cleverly acquired a number of bright young talents that should come through and offer what they need. As more of them come through and offer some more sparkle to their backline we should see them add a bit more edge to their game. Maybe they were just a little to safe in the final and they certainly missed Ewers and Skinner. Had they had the commonsense to kick the ball out rather than keep kicking it back to Quins whilst Cuthbert couldn't walk they might have won the final.

You mean Danny Care and Joe Marler? Hardly a hardcore of players there...though they are influential.

I think it more comes down to the fact we have the best 10 at playing attacking, "basketball" rugby in the league, a group of exciting backs who are also tenacious...our squad is almost tailor-made to play the rugby we're playing now, bar 2-3 random players who don't fit. Probably why Earle is off.

As for what we can change...

Getting more experience into those players. But it really helps that the coaching team are 3 insanely experienced former internationals who were thought of as 3 of the best in their respective positions.

Cutting out the attention span lapses. We've seemed to concede minimum 1 try a game from simply turning off. If we can cut that out, it'll simplify things somewhat.

Someone to take some of the weight off Marler's shoulders - the poor guy can't go on like this much longer. He's got to play 70+ minutes every game, or everything turns to crap as soon as Botta arrives. That's possibly the biggest gap between starter and replacement in the league.


Exeter, to me, need to cut out the stupid penalties. Most of which are given away by Jonny Hill. Who is a Lion. How? I don't know. But they dive in to rucks like hell, which has started to be rightly pinged. Cut that out and do they lose some of that breakdown effectiveness, though? Theirs is a tough one. Their game relies on that paper thin line between legal and illegal and if the regs change, or the interpretations change, they're screwed. To change away from that might need a change of approach, which would spell the end of their dominance as that's not going to happen overnight.

So they probably need to hope the regs hold on for another few seasons and they try to change it subtly within while continuing to upgrade their backline.

[Mikey Brown]

I think Quins do need someone in charge - this season has been incredible, Boy's Own stuff, but they've ridden their luck and had incredible escapes and leaned very heavily on the squad camaraderie and leadership on a lot of occasions. Didn't they have three weeks in a row where they won with a last ditch try? It's all come together for an incredible title, but it's not a viable long term plan to keep trusting to that.

Puja

That’s a good summary I think. I still thought it was too early for us to do it this year though, so what do I know. Someone to oversee the management by the existing coaches, rather than shape the game themselves, could be ideal.

And yes, depth in the front 5, halfback etc. needs addressing. If Marler, Dombrandt, Smith go down injured we’re screwed. This is what made Sarries’ cheating so effective, being able to have that depth across every single position.

[Banquo]

I think Quins do need someone in charge - this season has been incredible, Boy's Own stuff, but they've ridden their luck and had incredible escapes and leaned very heavily on the squad camaraderie and leadership on a lot of occasions. Didn't they have three weeks in a row where they won with a last ditch try? It's all come together for an incredible title, but it's not a viable long term plan to keep trusting to that.

Tabai Matson does sound perfect for them with his Brian Ashton-like approach to player empowerment. Give them an overarching structure and direction while not changing too much of what makes them great.

As for Exeter, I don't really know. They definitely missed their many missing back row and were unlucky to come up against an inspired Quins team, so I can definitely see them winning more Premiership titles as they are. However, I can't see them being a dominant force in Europe - their game is just too limited and restrictive at the top level. I don't know how they fix that without a major retool.

Plus, I've really started to dislike them with the racism, plus the "we've investigated ourselves and it turns out we've decided we're not actually racist so it's fine," plus the COVID opinions. So I wouldn't mind if they changed from being annoying dickweasels. With Sarries humbled and Sale performing a heel-face-turn under Sanderson, they're the new league bad guys.

Puja

On Exeter, they do have a very effective but limited play book 15m or so from the oppos line.....but have a variety of ways to getting there, and don't (seem to) kick as much as most teams, so I don't think they are quite as 'limited' as painted- they opened up impressively when they needed to yesterday I thought, though it exposed their biggest current 'flaw', the breakdown and resourcing it with the teams they like to select. That's where I think they need a re-think. I also thought Simmonds whilst less obvious than Smith had a good game, and his defence was very brave too, though Smith was also excellent there.

Quins deserve nothing but praise, magnificent resilience, and beating two teams who most think have stronger squads. I'd think they need a few new players to improve the quality of the squad- but I wouldn't try and fix the bits that aren't broken.....game planning and attitude.

[FKAS]

I must admit I do wonder if Quins need to change anything. Exeter issue appears to be the set piece isnt what it was. Their scrum mindset is win a penalty first, Quins is scrum square and then get the ball out to Care and Co asap. Maybe Exeter need to change that idea and play rugby first.

I dunno Quins scrummed hard and won penalties yesterday. Any team who thinks they can will. What Quins are good at is getting the advantage and then launching a multi phase attack on the back of it knowing they can take risks with the advantage of they need it.

Stom. Care, Marler and Brown is the majority of the leadership group at Quins and friends with the assistant coaches. When they talk they will be listened to. They wouldn't buy in to what Gustard attempted to build and wanted to play their own way. They had the younger players with them and a togetherness to make it work. The coaching structure was changed to make it work and it did. The things you've mentioned as required are more squad movement than what a coach can provide, particularly a head coach who are normally there to oversee the high level tactics and style of play.

[fivepointer]

Dont see much that either team need to change. Quins should resist the urge to hire a DoR based on the second half of their season. Seems that the coaching group - largely inexperienced - have managed very well without one. Sensibly they seem to have let the senior pro's lead things and that has turned out very well.
Exe wont change much but they perhaps need to look at who starts SH and the make up of their back row. Cant feeling Townsend at 9 gives them far more energy, and looking at a genuine 7 in Hinckley could offer them a real option at the b/d. A little less grind and a bit more ambition wouldnt go amiss.

[Scrumhead]

I agree on a lot of what has been written here.

The first thing I’d point out though is that Quins are hiring a Head Coach as opposed to a DoR. It sounds like a fairly subtle difference, but as I see it, Evans, Jones and Flannery are a relatively inexperienced group and I think we want another more senior, but still hands-on coach as opposed to an organiser. Millard is more or less a DoR in all but name.

Matson feels like a good fit. I’d be happy enough if it is him, but whoever it is will hopefully take on board what has worked so well and look to build on that - not change it.

In terms of changes, we do need to tighten up in defence and improve the depth in the squad, but the signings we’ve made so far are pretty encouraging. For example, I think Allan is a very good player who will fit in nicely and is a huge upgrade on Herron.

As Stom pointed out, another loosehead is much needed. Garcia Botta is dreadful and the drop off from Marler to him is massive. Els is promising but not really ready to be 2nd choice IMO. Someone like James Cronin would be ideal. I would have happily taken McIntrye or Morozov.

I’d imagine we’re now a much more attractive proposition than we were previously!

As for Exeter, I’m also of the opinion that they need to evolve their gameplan. It’s won them titles and there’s an element of ‘if it’s not broken, don’t try to fix it’, but nothing stands still in sport and I agree with Stom that they need to look at how they approach the breakdown. Stom mostly spoke about that from an attacking POV, whereas I’d argue one of their weaknesses is their lack of competition on defensive breakdowns. Cowan-Dickie is the only player who really offers much of jackalling threat and in the games against Leinster and Saints, I felt that hurt them. Hinkley looked like he could be a great signing but I don’t think he’s played a single game? If Simmonds has a break post Lions tour, they might actually benefit from the re-think that may prompt.

[FKAS]

Good point of a genuine openside/jackler for Chiefs. If they can't physically dominate a team then they do look a little stuck on a way to disrupt defensively. Relying LCD and Simmonds does limit them. No idea what's happened to Hinckley, he's vanished since he joined Chiefs. I don't know who's incoming at Chiefs but as they've failed to ever replace Kvesic I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to do so this summer.

[Puja]

Good point of a genuine openside/jackler for Chiefs. If they can't physically dominate a team then they do look a little stuck on a way to disrupt defensively. Relying LCD and Simmonds does limit them. No idea what's happened to Hinckley, he's vanished since he joined Chiefs. I don't know who's incoming at Chiefs but as they've failed to ever replace Kvesic I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to do so this summer.

TBH, they never really used Kvesic that much. They haven't had a specialist 7 playing regularly since Salvi.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Was it Salvi at 7 when Waldrom was playing 8? You wouldn’t accuse Waldrom of looking like a back, but I seem to remember he had a similarly alarming try streak for Exeter.

[Puja]

Was it Salvi at 7 when Waldrom was playing 8? You wouldn’t accuse Waldrom of looking like a back, but I seem to remember he had a similarly alarming try streak for Exeter.

IIRC, a lot of Waldrom's were from driving mauls, althoufh he did also have a very good read on the game to be there to finish off attacks.

Puja

[paddy no 11]

I see squidg is no fan of Exeter, what is the racism he refers to about?

[Scrumhead]

Good point of a genuine openside/jackler for Chiefs. If they can't physically dominate a team then they do look a little stuck on a way to disrupt defensively. Relying LCD and Simmonds does limit them. No idea what's happened to Hinckley, he's vanished since he joined Chiefs. I don't know who's incoming at Chiefs but as they've failed to ever replace Kvesic I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to do so this summer.

TBH, they never really used Kvesic that much. They haven't had a specialist 7 playing regularly since Salvi.

Puja

Kvesic only got a run of games when Sam Simmonds was out injured.

I’m sure there are players at Exeter other than LCD who can jackal effectively, but it doesn’t seem to be something they aim for. I assume that’s a tactical choice and presumably Baxter feels that the return from counter rucking etc. is more reliable and less risky (from a penalty POV?).

Capstick is a decent player, but Hinkley looked quite a bit better at age grade level and looked very good over the ball.

[Puja]

I see squidg is no fan of Exeter, what is the racism he refers to about?

The caricaturing of Native Americans as warlike savages wearing facepaint and feathers and doing the Tomahawk Chop, alongside their big-nosed and low-browed mascot and badge. Or, as Exeter like to call it, "We've had an internal review and decided that we're not racist, so it's fine."



Puja

[Danno]

I agree on a lot of what has been written here.

The first thing I’d point out though is that Quins are hiring a Head Coach as opposed to a DoR. It sounds like a fairly subtle difference, but as I see it, Evans, Jones and Flannery are a relatively inexperienced group and I think we want another more senior, but still hands-on coach as opposed to an organiser. Millard is more or less a DoR in all but name.

Matson feels like a good fit. I’d be happy enough if it is him, but whoever it is will hopefully take on board what has worked so well and look to build on that - not change it.

In terms of changes, we do need to tighten up in defence and improve the depth in the squad, but the signings we’ve made so far are pretty encouraging. For example, I think Allan is a very good player who will fit in nicely and is a huge upgrade on Herron.

As Stom pointed out, another loosehead is much needed. Garcia Botta is dreadful and the drop off from Marler to him is massive. Els is promising but not really ready to be 2nd choice IMO. Someone like James Cronin would be ideal. I would have happily taken McIntrye or Morozov.

I’d imagine we’re now a much more attractive proposition than we were previously!

The biggest thing imo is defence. We barely have one right now and I want to be able to use my fingernails again at some point

[Banquo]

Was it Salvi at 7 when Waldrom was playing 8? You wouldn’t accuse Waldrom of looking like a back, but I seem to remember he had a similarly alarming try streak for Exeter.

IIRC, a lot of Waldrom's were from driving mauls, althoufh he did also have a very good read on the game to be there to finish off attacks.

Puja

...as are a lot of Simmonds. And that close range try he got on Saturday showed the close carrying that many say he doesn't show

[Banquo]

Good point of a genuine openside/jackler for Chiefs. If they can't physically dominate a team then they do look a little stuck on a way to disrupt defensively. Relying LCD and Simmonds does limit them. No idea what's happened to Hinckley, he's vanished since he joined Chiefs. I don't know who's incoming at Chiefs but as they've failed to ever replace Kvesic I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to do so this summer.

TBH, they never really used Kvesic that much. They haven't had a specialist 7 playing regularly since Salvi.

Puja

Kvesic only got a run of games when Sam Simmonds was out injured.

I’m sure there are players at Exeter other than LCD who can jackal effectively, but it doesn’t seem to be something they aim for. I assume that’s a tactical choice and presumably Baxter feels that the return from counter rucking etc. is more reliable and less risky (from a penalty POV?).

Capstick is a decent player, but Hinkley looked quite a bit better at age grade level and looked very good over the ball.

Hinkley is/was crocked soon after signing. But changing the way the 7 plays will have a big knock on to how they play- see Sam Simmonds role. As I said earlier, and you also from a defensive/turnover view, they should review the way they resource and approach breakdowns; their keep ball approach breaks down when they go wide consistently, and they do find it hard to get the ball back against very good teams, or evem slow it down.

[Stom]

Was it Salvi at 7 when Waldrom was playing 8? You wouldn’t accuse Waldrom of looking like a back, but I seem to remember he had a similarly alarming try streak for Exeter.

IIRC, a lot of Waldrom's were from driving mauls, althoufh he did also have a very good read on the game to be there to finish off attacks.

Puja

...as are a lot of Simmonds. And that close range try he got on Saturday showed the close carrying that many say he doesn't show

It's really weird how people criticised Robshaw for his carrying, when he was a superb "recovery carrier", yet criticise Simmonds for his carrying when just about the only type of carry he doesn't do is that recovery carrying Robshaw did...

Which is understandable: they don't want to expend Simmonds' energy on those carries when they've got 2 beasts either side of him who can do those carries, leaving him to punch the actual holes.

He's a superb player, but if you don't provide the same platform as Exeter do, you're not going to get the same output.

[FKAS]

Good point of a genuine openside/jackler for Chiefs. If they can't physically dominate a team then they do look a little stuck on a way to disrupt defensively. Relying LCD and Simmonds does limit them. No idea what's happened to Hinckley, he's vanished since he joined Chiefs. I don't know who's incoming at Chiefs but as they've failed to ever replace Kvesic I wouldn't be surprised if they attempt to do so this summer.

TBH, they never really used Kvesic that much. They haven't had a specialist 7 playing regularly since Salvi.

Puja

Kvesic only got a run of games when Sam Simmonds was out injured.

Towards the end of his time there certainly. There was a time after he signed when he was talked up as an England player.

[Banquo]

TBH, they never really used Kvesic that much. They haven't had a specialist 7 playing regularly since Salvi.

Puja

Kvesic only got a run of games when Sam Simmonds was out injured.

Towards the end of his time there certainly. There was a time after he signed when he was talked up as an England player.

He should have got some caps, very good player. He was in the frame before he went to Exeter.

[Mellsblue]

Kvesic only got a run of games when Sam Simmonds was out injured.

Towards the end of his time there certainly. There was a time after he signed when he was talked up as an England player.

He should have got some caps, very good player. He was in the frame before he went to Exeter.

Didn’t he end up playing mostly at 8 for Exe, possibly leading to the position that S Simmonds is currently in with Eng. It’s either that or the fact he was so strongly championed by Diggers that did for his England chances.

[Timbo]

Don’t think Exeter need to change much. Just small improvements here and there. They’ve continually evolved under Baxter. Looking at their age profile and quality would be very surprised if they’re not competing at the business end of Prem and Europe for the next 2-3 seasons at least. Biggest difference between now and their double winning exploits is mental imo. They look a bit goosed. Can only go to the well so many times and their top players have played in more big games over the last 12 months than anyone else (by a distance probably). This final loss will act as great motivation for them I imagine.

On Hinckley, he did his knee on his Exe debut I think. Just after the restart. Only got back to fitness quite recently, but with no A League hard for his to make a case to get in the team.