Wasps originals video interviews

[Raggs]

About the pressures of social media, dealing with it etc.

[Puja]

Valuable reminder about thinking before you post. Thanks for sharing that.

Puja

[Magic_sponge]

I think this is really interesting. Firstly I should be clear, I don't rate him particularly, at least at the international level. Secondly I would say he spoke really well and made some good points. Third I'd just be clear, as soon as any comments cross into abuse, racism, homophobia, or similar, that's too far and are not represented by my points below

Fundamentally, for me, we're still getting used to social media. On the one hand I was thinking someone saying "he doesn't deserve to play for Wasps" is just someone having an opinion. And for that person, that may have been as far as they intended for it to mean. But on the other hand, I can totally see how as the subject of that statement it would be a massive thing, and something you wouldn't have 'traditionally' had to put up with. Just imagining if every time I made a little mistake at work (which obviously never happens...) it was in front of thousands of people who then called me out for it! Totally happy to admit that would affect me.

But on the other (third?!) hand, I vigorously maintain our right to criticise where we feel it's due, as long as it's not abusive, etc. I personally don't have any social media, so I would never post about a bad play, but on forums like this, freedom of thought is what gives it any value and is totally necessary.

[Which Tyler]

I think it depends on the social media TBH.

Obviously, actual abuse, racism etc is never okay; but criticism of a player's play...
It's one thing to say as much on a forum like this, or your own twitgrambook; but another thing entirely to tag the individual concerned to (try to) make sure they see exactly what you think of them, whilst hiding behind a computer screen.

Basically, if a player comes on here and sees criticism of themselves - that's on them - they've actively gone looking for our opinions. If a poster specifically tags the player into the comment; then the poster has crossed a line, by seeking out the player to shout at them.
Commenting on articles about the player... he's had to go looking, but you kinda know he's going to - I've never commented on an article, but I'd say that criticism should be kept to what's covered in the article, and kept pretty mild - keep to something you'd be happy enough to say to his dad in the pub.

IMO criticism of a rugby player's rugby is fair game; as is criticism of their words when they speak in public, or voluntary things about their appearance (what is it with Exeter and haircuts?).
Criticism of stuff you can't know about the player (attitude, how hard they train etc) should be kept to an absolute minimum and made clear that it's speculation.
Carping on and on about one thing should be avoided - partly in case the player does get to see it, but also because it's just incredibly boring for anyone else to read.
Criticism of anything else about the player that they can't help is an absolute no-no; and I'd count that as abuse even if it's mild.
Abuse and ism.s shouldn't be posted anywhere.

Tagging a player to see your opinion of them is a big social faux-pas in the vast majority of cases - even in celebration (though I suspect they don't mind those) and should ALWAYS be done very carefully, because you ARE saying it to their face.

[FKAS]

Agreed Which. You're allowed to have an opinion but shoving it in their face isn't welcome. Positive comments I think are normally welcome because who doesn't like a pat on the back when they've been working hard?

Abuse is never ok and the sooner that's stamped out the better. The people who dish it out wouldn't have the bottle to tell it to one of the players face to face.

[padprop]

Echo almost everything thats been said, social media companies still need to do more though as trolling will never stop. Even if everyone in the UK becomes saintly in the social media usage, theres literal organisational troll farms all over the world that is in its interest to stir up unrest and generate clicks.

I see a lot sporting internet trolling as almost a sort of road rage. You make a rash post due to heightened emotions, except you haven't been saying it to yourself in your Toyota Yaris, but you’ve screamed it into a void where close to 8 billion people can access it.

[Raggs]

Renamed the title, seems they're doing a series.

Next up is Paolo Odogwu:

[Puja]

Really interesting to hear his perspective on things. I've heard the thing about black players being funnelled towards strength and speed positions and away from cerebral positions before, but it took me completely by surprise the first time I heard it - hadn't even considered it might happen, because it was something that didn't happen to me.

Puja

[jngf]

I would thoroughly recommend for their own sanity no professional players browse boards like this (That’s not to decry any of our posting but just to say that criticism is naturally hard to receive even if fair).I’d also make a more general point in that sometimes it’s worth people in the public eye taking a hard think about do they really need to be active on social media so much to begin with (or at all?) At the end of the day it’s lining tech giants pockets rather than necessarily always being the democratising force for good that those same tech giants claim...

Removing anonymity would make social media more civilised at a stroke, however I can see certain use cases e.g. politically oppressed, victims of abuse/ violence etc. - where such anonymity may have helped them to make a cry for help

[Digby]

Actually quite a few black players in the top flight, by far the bigger failing is the lack of Asian players. But on both counts the problem is the general lack of outreach rugby has .

Not sure Cips will appreciate being told he's not black either, but whatever, either controversial from Paolo or more likely forgetfulness

[Puja]

Actually quite a few black players in the top flight, by far the bigger failing is the lack of Asian players. But on both counts the problem is the general lack of outreach rugby has .

Not sure Cips will appreciate being told he's not black either, but whatever, either controversial from Paolo or more likely forgetfulness

With the way the genes shook out, it's not unreasonable for someone not up with Cipriani's family history to not realise that his dad's black, so I can't exactly blame Odogwu for that. I'm willing to bet half this board don't know either and we're all massive rugby nerds.

A couple of years ago, I came across the concept of colourism (which hadn't occurred to me until pointed out either), which is that racism isn't just a binary, but that lighter skinned people of colour get privileges that darker skinned people don't. Things like acting - black men are allowed to have dark skin because of the racist stereotype of being strong and powerful, but romantic leads for women of colour go to those with lighter skin and whiter facial shapes because they're seen as prettier. I'd imagine the same thing happened here - Cipriani didn't evoke the subconscious reaction of strong/powerful/fast to his youth coaches and so wasn't shoved out to the wing.

Puja

[FKAS]

Thanks that was an interesting interview, he speaks very well on the subject. The pedant in me wants to point out Zach Henry and Marcus Smith but that really isn't the point, it's a really sad that talented young kids of colour are being type cast into certain positions instead of being given opportunities to show off their full calibre of skills. Maybe Zach Henry is the point, would he have had more opportunities at a younger age playing 10 in the UK if he was white? Are we missing out on the next Aaron Smith because we've decided he's got to be a winger? Very concerning as a rugby fan, on paper we should be the most inclusive sport in the world but we're clearly failing to achieve that by a distance.

Still saddens me that the whole you must be a private school thing is so prevalent. Such rubbish. I know Tigers have started a program that gets players of potential into their set up at Melton Mowbray but that's still identifying young state school players and moving them over to a semi or full time school set up outside of where they are currently. I'd really hope more clubs were looking into state school talent and into communities that don't have a history of integration with the local rugby team. Tigers have a long history of bringing through players from Norfolk but how many do we see from Asian or Carribbean communities in our own city?

[Which Tyler]

Thanks that was an interesting interview, he speaks very well on the subject. The pedant in me wants to point out Zach Henry and Marcus Smith but that really isn't the point

Josh Matevesi too - he may be Fijian, but born and bred in Cornwall, and very much a product of the English system (though IIRC he started out at FB, and worked his way in-field). Still not the point though - these exceptions do more to more prove the rule than discredit it.

[Digby]

Actually quite a few black players in the top flight, by far the bigger failing is the lack of Asian players. But on both counts the problem is the general lack of outreach rugby has .

Not sure Cips will appreciate being told he's not black either, but whatever, either controversial from Paolo or more likely forgetfulness

With the way the genes shook out, it's not unreasonable for someone not up with Cipriani's family history to not realise that his dad's black, so I can't exactly blame Odogwu for that. I'm willing to bet half this board don't know either and we're all massive rugby nerds.

A couple of years ago, I came across the concept of colourism (which hadn't occurred to me until pointed out either), which is that racism isn't just a binary, but that lighter skinned people of colour get privileges that darker skinned people don't. Things like acting - black men are allowed to have dark skin because of the racist stereotype of being strong and powerful, but romantic leads for women of colour go to those with lighter skin and whiter facial shapes because they're seen as prettier. I'd imagine the same thing happened here - Cipriani didn't evoke the subconscious reaction of strong/powerful/fast to his youth coaches and so wasn't shoved out to the wing.

Puja

The concept of colourism simply in rugby goes back more than just a few years, it's certainly been prevalent since I started playing as a kid back in the late 80s. Stick the big fast black guy on the wing and all that.

But it doesn't just apply to skin colour, thus we get Banahan moved into lock, or at my much more modest level I mostly played 9 because my height was deemed more suitable there no matter my preference (and try scoring stats) playing 15.

Rugby coaches are blinkered idiots oftentimes, but things are slowly improving, and I'm hesitant to be too critical of people often giving up their time for free to help kids. And I can say in the last few years I've seen any number of junior players featuring at 9 and 10 who're black. And I wouldn't want to say without knowing that what happened with Cips was merely a lack of evoking bias, he might simply have been recognised as a bloody good player. Even idiot rugby coaches would likely be persuaded by a having a young George Gregan

I can however blame Odogwu for making an ignorant point, even if I've some sympathy for what he's trying to articulate and his ignorance was likely not made in bad faith (unless it was in which case he's actually being somewhat unpleasant). Still, the bigger problem is the lack of Asian representation looking at the UK's population makeup, which isn't all on rugby, if people have no interest in rugby it's hard to build momentum for change.

[Puja]

Actually quite a few black players in the top flight, by far the bigger failing is the lack of Asian players. But on both counts the problem is the general lack of outreach rugby has .

Not sure Cips will appreciate being told he's not black either, but whatever, either controversial from Paolo or more likely forgetfulness

With the way the genes shook out, it's not unreasonable for someone not up with Cipriani's family history to not realise that his dad's black, so I can't exactly blame Odogwu for that. I'm willing to bet half this board don't know either and we're all massive rugby nerds.

A couple of years ago, I came across the concept of colourism (which hadn't occurred to me until pointed out either), which is that racism isn't just a binary, but that lighter skinned people of colour get privileges that darker skinned people don't. Things like acting - black men are allowed to have dark skin because of the racist stereotype of being strong and powerful, but romantic leads for women of colour go to those with lighter skin and whiter facial shapes because they're seen as prettier. I'd imagine the same thing happened here - Cipriani didn't evoke the subconscious reaction of strong/powerful/fast to his youth coaches and so wasn't shoved out to the wing.

Puja

The concept of colourism simply in rugby goes back more than just a few years, it's certainly been prevalent since I started playing as a kid back in the late 80s. Stick the big fast black guy on the wing and all that.

But it doesn't just apply to skin colour, thus we get Banahan moved into lock, or at my much more modest level I mostly played 9 because my height was deemed more suitable there no matter my preference (and try scoring stats) playing 15.

Rugby coaches are blinkered idiots oftentimes, but things are slowly improving, and I'm hesitant to be too critical of people often giving up their time for free to help kids. And I can say in the last few years I've seen any number of junior players featuring at 9 and 10 who're black. And I wouldn't want to say without knowing that what happened with Cips was merely a lack of evoking bias, he might simply have been recognised as a bloody good player. Even idiot rugby coaches would likely be persuaded by a having a young George Gregan

I can however blame Odogwu for making an ignorant point, even if I've some sympathy for what he's trying to articulate and his ignorance was likely not made in bad faith (unless it was in which case he's actually being somewhat unpleasant). Still, the bigger problem is the lack of Asian representation looking at the UK's population makeup, which isn't all on rugby, if people have no interest in rugby it's hard to build momentum for change.

I'd disagree that Odogwu's made an ignorant point - you've seen a number of junior black 9s and 10s, but over the past 20-odd years, the only example that we can give of a black English 9 or 10 in the Premiership, is somebody with a skin tone that most people would assume is white unless they specifically know otherwise.

I agree that the lack of Asian representation is a big problem too, but pointing out another problem does not invalidate the first.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

Yeah, was the ignorant part of what Odogwu said in not acknowledging Cipriani (that’s certainly news to me), Henry and Smith? Or am I misreading that?

I thought he spoke very well on this, that it’s not necessarily overt racism, more just general assumptions about athletic ability vs skill and reading of the game.

[Digby]

With the way the genes shook out, it's not unreasonable for someone not up with Cipriani's family history to not realise that his dad's black, so I can't exactly blame Odogwu for that. I'm willing to bet half this board don't know either and we're all massive rugby nerds.

A couple of years ago, I came across the concept of colourism (which hadn't occurred to me until pointed out either), which is that racism isn't just a binary, but that lighter skinned people of colour get privileges that darker skinned people don't. Things like acting - black men are allowed to have dark skin because of the racist stereotype of being strong and powerful, but romantic leads for women of colour go to those with lighter skin and whiter facial shapes because they're seen as prettier. I'd imagine the same thing happened here - Cipriani didn't evoke the subconscious reaction of strong/powerful/fast to his youth coaches and so wasn't shoved out to the wing.

Puja

The concept of colourism simply in rugby goes back more than just a few years, it's certainly been prevalent since I started playing as a kid back in the late 80s. Stick the big fast black guy on the wing and all that.

But it doesn't just apply to skin colour, thus we get Banahan moved into lock, or at my much more modest level I mostly played 9 because my height was deemed more suitable there no matter my preference (and try scoring stats) playing 15.

Rugby coaches are blinkered idiots oftentimes, but things are slowly improving, and I'm hesitant to be too critical of people often giving up their time for free to help kids. And I can say in the last few years I've seen any number of junior players featuring at 9 and 10 who're black. And I wouldn't want to say without knowing that what happened with Cips was merely a lack of evoking bias, he might simply have been recognised as a bloody good player. Even idiot rugby coaches would likely be persuaded by a having a young George Gregan

I can however blame Odogwu for making an ignorant point, even if I've some sympathy for what he's trying to articulate and his ignorance was likely not made in bad faith (unless it was in which case he's actually being somewhat unpleasant). Still, the bigger problem is the lack of Asian representation looking at the UK's population makeup, which isn't all on rugby, if people have no interest in rugby it's hard to build momentum for change.

I'd disagree that Odogwu's made an ignorant point - you've seen a number of junior black 9s and 10s, but over the past 20-odd years, the only example that we can give of a black English 9 or 10 in the Premiership, is somebody with a skin tone that most people would assume is white unless they specifically know otherwise.

I agree that the lack of Asian representation is a big problem too, but pointing out another problem does not invalidate the first.

Puja

I didn't watch the video, I'm just going off the comment viewable on the file that there isn't one black number 10 in the premier league. Perhaps he didn't actually say that, but supposing he did (and I did suppose that) it's not true, and thus he's either lying or ignorant, and I'm further supposing it was ignorance rather than just a lie. He does have a wider underlying point, but the manner in which he expressed himself is ignorant nonetheless

[Puja]

The concept of colourism simply in rugby goes back more than just a few years, it's certainly been prevalent since I started playing as a kid back in the late 80s. Stick the big fast black guy on the wing and all that.

But it doesn't just apply to skin colour, thus we get Banahan moved into lock, or at my much more modest level I mostly played 9 because my height was deemed more suitable there no matter my preference (and try scoring stats) playing 15.

Rugby coaches are blinkered idiots oftentimes, but things are slowly improving, and I'm hesitant to be too critical of people often giving up their time for free to help kids. And I can say in the last few years I've seen any number of junior players featuring at 9 and 10 who're black. And I wouldn't want to say without knowing that what happened with Cips was merely a lack of evoking bias, he might simply have been recognised as a bloody good player. Even idiot rugby coaches would likely be persuaded by a having a young George Gregan

I can however blame Odogwu for making an ignorant point, even if I've some sympathy for what he's trying to articulate and his ignorance was likely not made in bad faith (unless it was in which case he's actually being somewhat unpleasant). Still, the bigger problem is the lack of Asian representation looking at the UK's population makeup, which isn't all on rugby, if people have no interest in rugby it's hard to build momentum for change.

I'd disagree that Odogwu's made an ignorant point - you've seen a number of junior black 9s and 10s, but over the past 20-odd years, the only example that we can give of a black English 9 or 10 in the Premiership, is somebody with a skin tone that most people would assume is white unless they specifically know otherwise.

I agree that the lack of Asian representation is a big problem too, but pointing out another problem does not invalidate the first.

Puja

I didn't watch the video, I'm just going off the comment viewable on the file that there isn't one black number 10 in the premier league. Perhaps he didn't actually say that, but supposing he did (and I did suppose that) it's not true, and thus he's either lying or ignorant, and I'm further supposing it was ignorance rather than just a lie. He does have a wider underlying point, but the manner in which he expressed himself is ignorant nonetheless

Ah. Might I suggest watching the video of the black man discussing his experiences of racism before offering an opinion on it? Or just not offering the opinion if you're not in the mood to watch a video, either or.

Puja

[Digby]

I'd disagree that Odogwu's made an ignorant point - you've seen a number of junior black 9s and 10s, but over the past 20-odd years, the only example that we can give of a black English 9 or 10 in the Premiership, is somebody with a skin tone that most people would assume is white unless they specifically know otherwise.

I agree that the lack of Asian representation is a big problem too, but pointing out another problem does not invalidate the first.

Puja

I didn't watch the video, I'm just going off the comment viewable on the file that there isn't one black number 10 in the premier league. Perhaps he didn't actually say that, but supposing he did (and I did suppose that) it's not true, and thus he's either lying or ignorant, and I'm further supposing it was ignorance rather than just a lie. He does have a wider underlying point, but the manner in which he expressed himself is ignorant nonetheless

Ah. Might I suggest watching the video of the black man discussing his experiences of racism before offering an opinion on it? Or just not offering the opinion if you're not in the mood to watch a video, either or.

Puja

If he didn't say there are no black 10s then I'm wrong, if he did he's wrong, I could watch to find out but that doesn't seem especially interesting as a notion. I did note even if he's wrong he is reaching towards a wider overall point even if expressed with the benefit of ignorance.

I think there's something to the idea of coloured players not having the smarts to lead a side, but there are many problems with players getting shoehorned into roles they wouldn't want, that doesn't invalidate the concern, but it does muddy the waters, and I can say watching kids rugby at junior levels there has been something of a change over the last 10-15 years already.

Right now I think there's a bigger problem getting rugby into communities that are grammar schools and public schools. So to correct the number of non white players we either need to boost the numbers of non whites in those schools and/or do more to get rugby moved beyond it's narrow confines

[Mikey Brown]

He does talk about that in the video, but... you know.

[Digby]

Then he's factually incorrect, or ignorant. Which is all I noted whilst also noting he has a wider underlying point that isn't entirely wrong, but there's more going into it than just race.

[Mikey Brown]

I meant that he talks about all those same things you just mentioned.

[Puja]

I'm just still impressed you're having the confidence to critique a black guy's comments on his experiences with race and everyday racism as "having a wider underlying point that isn't entirely wrong," without even bothering to listen to them.

Puja

[Digby]

To try again I'm not trying to comment on his experiences, which I haven't listened to, other than to say he has a point in general even if it's tricky to consider in isolation, I'm simply noting the seeming quote given is factually incorrect. And facts aren't a matter of opinion.

Whatever his experience the stated fact is wrong, it doesn't meant he doesn't have a point, it only means that fact was wrong whether he's experienced racism or not, and thus he's spoken out of ignorance (or intentionally lying or a refusal to countenance Cips can be considered black, both of which seem more than a little unlikely). Conceivably someone might prefer a descriptor of mistaken to ignorance, and if you're standing up in the name of semantics then by all means crack on.

[jngf]

Noticed that this is levelled in the context of the backs - I am assuming it crops up far less in the forwards and players are encouraged into positions determined by their size body shape and height, physical strength, degree of explosive power, degree of jumping ability, handling skills, speed, defensive technique and for the forwards there’s not a stereotype in the manner of player x has certain race/ethnicity so stick them on the wing?