Autumn Internationals Announced

[Puja]

6th Nov - Tonga
13th Nov - Australia
20th Nov - South Africa

Good set of games and a chance to look at some new players in more demanding games than USA and Canada. Nice build from a fairly routine game against Tonga to a potential banana skin against Australia, with the finale being the big challenge. Makes a change from our usual choice of NZ first up.

Puja

[Danno]

It's a nice lineup, although I was really hoping to see us play Japan. I'd love to know whether we could stifle their attack once it's in full flight and they're just a joy to watch. Probably watched their pool win over Ireland 3 or 4 times now.

[Puja]

Be interesting to see if Tonga pull out their new signings via the Olympics of Fekitoa and Timani. They were conspicuous by their absence when Tonga got walloped by Samoa in the RWC qualifying.

Puja

[morepork]

Be interesting to see if Tonga pull out their new signings via the Olympics of Fekitoa and Timani. They were conspicuous by their absence when Tonga got walloped by Samoa in the RWC qualifying.

Puja

Tonga had 13 new caps in that team. A combination of club players not being released and the money and time cost of quarantine in NZ. They are in pretty bad shape.

[Puja]

Be interesting to see if Tonga pull out their new signings via the Olympics of Fekitoa and Timani. They were conspicuous by their absence when Tonga got walloped by Samoa in the RWC qualifying.

Puja

Tonga had 13 new caps in that team. A combination of club players not being released and the money and time cost of quarantine in NZ. They are in pretty bad shape.

Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering if they'd thrown it to get into a different group, although South Africa/Scotland/Ireland isn't exactly better than England/Japan/Argentina. You will be pleased to know that, according to the BBC, "The Rugby Football Union will make a donation to Tonga Rugby as a goodwill gesture." They appear to have learned to get their PR response in first this time, although calling it a 'gesture' is uncharacteristically honest.

Puja

[FKAS]

Bit of a thing with the RFU and payments after the All Black's refusing to play at HQ for a couple of years and the RFU wouldn't give them an appearance fee. Good to see some cash is going to Tonga, should help them get a proper squad set up and mean a better spectacle.

Here's hoping we use the Tonga game as an extension of the summer and continue to bed in the likes of Heyes, Steward, Dombrandt, Randall and Smith before reverting to a more experienced set up Vs Australia and then SA. Also gives the younger guys a chance to break into the test team.

[Puja]

Bit of a thing with the RFU and payments after the All Black's refusing to play at HQ for a couple of years and the RFU wouldn't give them an appearance fee. Good to see some cash is going to Tonga, should help them get a proper squad set up and mean a better spectacle.

Here's hoping we use the Tonga game as an extension of the summer and continue to bed in the likes of Heyes, Steward, Dombrandt, Randall and Smith before reverting to a more experienced set up Vs Australia and then SA. Also gives the younger guys a chance to break into the test team.

I've got no truck with sharing profits with NZ - they're perfectly capable of financing their own game and they can go and build their own 80k stadium if they want the profits that come from it. Bit different with the likes of Tonga and Samoa.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

Here's hoping we use the Tonga game as an extension of the summer and continue to bed in the likes of Heyes, Steward, Dombrandt, Randall and Smith before reverting to a more experienced set up Vs Australia and then SA. Also gives the younger guys a chance to break into the test team.

I’m a bit torn on this.

I’m in complete agreement on Smith, Dombrandt, Steward and Randall (I think Heyes is less urgent) having more opportunity and we need to see if they can perform against Tier 1 opposition, but I also think we need three wins to get back on track and start building some momentum going in to 2022.

Australia will be really up for the game given their run of defeats at Twickenham and will have a bit of confidence after their series win against France (yes I know it was mostly a reserve squad) and I’m sure I am not alone in wanting some revenge against SA. Up until 2019 I didn’t really have a huge amount of animosity towards SA, but the way their supporters have behaved since the World Cup is like the Welsh on steroids - I’ve never seen such bad winners and I would love to shut them up.

Ideally, I’d start Smith in all three games, with Randall and Dombrandt starting against Tonga and coming off the bench vs. Australia and SA. Not sure what to do with Steward … I’d be tempted to start him in all three games, but some of that will depend on the make up of the midfield and back three. For example, if Daly goes well at 13 for the Lions (and then Saracens) and Malins is playing at 15 for Saracens, do we go with that or move one of them and pick Steward? I know Eddie likes that ‘roaming winger’ concept and Malins is an interesting choice for that role … lots of rugby to be played between now and then …

I've got no truck with sharing profits with NZ - they're perfectly capable of financing their own game and they can go and build their own 80k stadium if they want the profits that come from it. Bit different with the likes of Tonga and Samoa.

Puja

100% agree on this. I hope it’s a decent ‘gesture’.

[Cameo]

Be interesting to see if Tonga pull out their new signings via the Olympics of Fekitoa and Timani. They were conspicuous by their absence when Tonga got walloped by Samoa in the RWC qualifying.

Puja

Tonga had 13 new caps in that team. A combination of club players not being released and the money and time cost of quarantine in NZ. They are in pretty bad shape.

Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering if they'd thrown it to get into a different group, although South Africa/Scotland/Ireland isn't exactly better than England/Japan/Argentina. You will be pleased to know that, according to the BBC, "The Rugby Football Union will make a donation to Tonga Rugby as a goodwill gesture." They appear to have learned to get their PR response in first this time, although calling it a 'gesture' is uncharacteristically honest.

Puja

You might be interested in this...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/inter ... test-match

[Puja]

Tonga had 13 new caps in that team. A combination of club players not being released and the money and time cost of quarantine in NZ. They are in pretty bad shape.

Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering if they'd thrown it to get into a different group, although South Africa/Scotland/Ireland isn't exactly better than England/Japan/Argentina. You will be pleased to know that, according to the BBC, "The Rugby Football Union will make a donation to Tonga Rugby as a goodwill gesture." They appear to have learned to get their PR response in first this time, although calling it a 'gesture' is uncharacteristically honest.

Puja

You might be interested in this...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/inter ... test-match

Yeesh. Poor sods. Seems barking that they're not getting some kind of World Rugby help rather than making one of the poorest countries on the planet pay for hotel costs to quarantine in a developed country.

Could make qualifying very interesting if Cook Islands manage to squeeze past them. That'd make the Asia vs Pacific match actually competitive rather than a foregone conclusion and, conversely, likely wrap up the repechage early by putting an angry and, hopefully by that point full-strength, Tonga in it.

Puja

[FKAS]

Puja, agreed. He'll develop the tier 2 sides because that enriches the game. Tier 1 sides have plenty of opportunities to coin it.

Scrumhead, if a mixed England team can't beat Tonga then we have issues. I also dislike the idea of Smith starting all three games unless Ford's form at the start of the season simply isn't good enough. For two reasons, Smith has done nothing yet in an England shirt that warrants ditching an 80+ cap 28 year old stalwart and secondly there is no mad pressing need to replace our flyhalf we can develop Smith over the AIs and form from both him and Ford depending the 6N. It's a great opportunity to to develop a nice succession plan. Ditto with Randall and Youngs at 9. Settle then in and get them up to speed.

I would like to see Stuart and Heyes as the tightheads for the Tonga game. Start creating depth across the squad. Increase the competition so it's not just telling the media no one's shirt is safe it's a real thing and it will become perform or be surpassed.

[Mikey Brown]

Yep. No rush with Smith and I’m always excited to see Ford get a run out with a different midfield. I’m assuming Farrell gets rested but I’ve made that mistake before.

[16th man]

Very much in agreement with their being no rush to replace Ford with Smith. We're at a point where we have an experienced, skilled player, who isn't a physical wreck in a key position, and we should be looking to take full advantage of that, especially with the midfield outside him being so unsettled.

Smith and the other young fly half options need some chance to be in the set up and get some minutes, but they won't be massively affected by not being first choice by 22, and will be gaining minimal benefit from having to cope with the ever-changing mash up of styles and personell immediately outside them.

It isn't like the Robshaw at 7 situation, where, as he came to then end of his career, literally the only other active player with caps in the position was Haskell. It could be more McCaw stepping aside having been well managed with the understudy in Cane already having @50 caps.

[fivepointer]

I'd start Smith against Tonga. I'd also include Heyes, Randall, Dombrandt and Steward. I might give Radwan a start but i'd also mix in some of the returning seniors players. Beef up the selection against Australia with a few returning Lions and look to put out a 1st choice side against SA.

[Stom]

I'd start Smith against Tonga. I'd also include Heyes, Randall, Dombrandt and Steward. I might give Radwan a start but i'd also mix in some of the returning seniors players. Beef up the selection against Australia with a few returning Lions and look to put out a 1st choice side against SA.

I think I definitely would start Radwan if possible. May is getting on a bit, and while he's surely first choice, it'd be good to have a backup. Likewise, I'd look to get Coka involved, too, and I'd pick the best of those 2 in the 23 shirt, potentially. Though if Daly goes well at 13, maybe he'd be the 23.

[Scrumhead]

Scrumhead, if a mixed England team can't beat Tonga then we have issues. I also dislike the idea of Smith starting all three games unless Ford's form at the start of the season simply isn't good enough. For two reasons, Smith has done nothing yet in an England shirt that warrants ditching an 80+ cap 28 year old stalwart and secondly there is no mad pressing need to replace our flyhalf we can develop Smith over the AIs and form from both him and Ford depending the 6N. It's a great opportunity to to develop a nice succession plan. Ditto with Randall and Youngs at 9. Settle then in and get them up to speed.

I would like to see Stuart and Heyes as the tightheads for the Tonga game. Start creating depth across the squad. Increase the competition so it's not just telling the media no one's shirt is safe it's a real thing and it will become perform or be surpassed.

I wasn’t suggesting we needed to be full strength to beat Tonga? However, I do think the Australia game has the potential to be a banana skin game if our key combinations aren’t bedded-in and a lot of our ‘go to’ players will not have played together since the 6N. Hence why I’d want to use the Tonga game as a balance of regaining familiarity and introducing a bit of new blood.

If it’s Youngs and Ford at 9/10 familiarity is obviously not an issue, but then we lose the opportunity to give Smith the chance to play against a Tier 1 side which I think could be important. I don’t want to ‘rush’ him, but arguably his debut was overdue and if we only play him against Tonga and let’s say Italy in the 6N, we don’t really learn all that much. IMO, the AI games are less pressurised that than the 6N which make them a better opportunity to see what Smith can do against higher standard opposition.

BTW, I’m a fan of Ford’s and I’m not in any way suggesting that we should be ‘ditching’ him. I just think the potential upside of giving Smith the AIs is better than essentially giving Ford another 3 caps.

[FKAS]

Twenty minutes off the bench for Randall and Smith against Australia and SA should ease them into tier 1 rugby.

A mix and match team Vs Tonga should be fine, get some key names in there like say the midfield and wings then you can have Randall, Smith and Steward in there for development.

9. Randall
10. Smith
11. May
12. Farrell
13. Manu
14. Watson
15. Steward

Establish the midfield combination but also develop players in areas of future need.

[Puja]

I think everyone is jumping the gun a bit here. We'll have two months of Premiership action before the EPS is named and we need to see how players have reacted to their varying summer experiences. Will Ford be back to his best having finally had a chance to shake off his achilles injury, have a proper break, and pre-season or will he still be off his best? Will Smith be invigorated by being in the Lions and training in an environment that expects him to be on par with the best in the NH or will he suffer a slump as the pressure gets to him? Will Farrell be stung by the loss of the Lions starting jersey that he has come to expect over the past few years and react well, or will he go back to being safe at Sarries? Will Umaga have seen what is expected of him in the England camp and kick on, full of desire to get back in there, or will he struggle and start losing out to Atkinson?

And that's just the fly-halves - I'm fascinated to see what the reactions of May, Radwan, Randall, Youngs, Heyes, Sinckler, BillyV, Earl, JHill, Blamire, Genge, Martin, Wells are to the various selections and non-selections that have happened this summer. Practically the only one I'm not intrigued about is Ludlow!

My take is that we need to see the first month at least before we can start thinking about how to approach the AIs. Picking on form might be a radical and outre thing to suggest for an England team, but I think it's the only way to approach things after a summer that's effectively been a soft reset.

Puja

[Puja]

Ah, that makes sense. I was wondering if they'd thrown it to get into a different group, although South Africa/Scotland/Ireland isn't exactly better than England/Japan/Argentina. You will be pleased to know that, according to the BBC, "The Rugby Football Union will make a donation to Tonga Rugby as a goodwill gesture." They appear to have learned to get their PR response in first this time, although calling it a 'gesture' is uncharacteristically honest.

Puja

You might be interested in this...

https://i.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/inter ... test-match

Yeesh. Poor sods. Seems barking that they're not getting some kind of World Rugby help rather than making one of the poorest countries on the planet pay for hotel costs to quarantine in a developed country.

Could make qualifying very interesting if Cook Islands manage to squeeze past them. That'd make the Asia vs Pacific match actually competitive rather than a foregone conclusion and, conversely, likely wrap up the repechage early by putting an angry and, hopefully by that point full-strength, Tonga in it.

Never mind then!
https://apnews.com/article/sports-europ ... 3d113c2e98

Puja