Post Lions rest = big effect on the Premiership?

[Scrumhead]

Might not be correct, but just seen that the Lions rest period is a mandatory 10 weeks from the end of the 3rd test regardless of how much each player has featured. That runs up to mid October.

That seems like a very long rest for any players who haven’t been in the test sides. Obviously some could play next week, but a lot of that will depend on how today’s game goes. If the Boks come back to level the series, I think it’s unlikely players who have yet to feature in the test 23s will be drafted in.

I know these players have had no break whatsoever, but it does seem strange that a player with 80mins vs. one of the provincial sides weeks ago has the same rest period as the players who will feature in all three test matches.

You’d have to think this will be costly for a number of Premiership sides.

Bath: Faletau, Watson
Bristol: Sinckler
Exeter: Cowan-Dickie, Hill, Hogg, Simmonds
Gloucester: Harris, Rees-Zammit
Harlequins: Smith
Leicester: Wiese
Northampton: Biggar, Lawes
Sale: Curry, de Jager, de Klerk (not sure about the du Preez twins and Oosthuizen?)
Saracens: Daly, Farrell, George, Itoje, Koch, Vunipola
Worcester: van der Merwe, Sutherland

I think that’s everyone? Saracens, Exeter and Sale are hit hard as well as potentially Sale (not sure if the du Preez boys are already at home?). Given the AIs and the Rugby Championship will be starting hot on the heels of the rest period, it’s going to be a weird season.

From a Quins POV starting a title defence without our most important player is a big deal, but Allan is a good player and if he settles quickly, we’re actually one of the least affected.

Similarly, Bristol and Leicester in particular might be looking at this and thinking it’s a great opportunity to get off to a strong start.

[Puja]

Question - doesn't the Lions rest period only apply to Lions players? I thought we could thrash the South Africans as much as we liked?

Corollary - if we do have to rest the South African players, does that include the provincial and A team players? The difference for Leicester is between having a full team and missing Wiese and Van Staden for the opening.

Puja

[Digby]

The jamboree comes with a price we're either happy to pay or not.

And I think it is important for everyone to get a rest period, even if they haven't played much they're on tour, they're mentally engaged and they should be getting time away from that. It's never getting off the treadmill which builds the mental fatigue over time

[Scrumhead]

I’m not suggesting they don’t have a rest. I’m just saying that it seems strange that the player with the least minutes will have exactly the same rest period as the player who plays the most. I’m not underestimating mental fatigue, but I don’t think the overall fatigue of the players who barely feature will be in any way comparable to those who play in the warm ups and the tests.

TBH, the thread was intended to be more focused on the impact on the Premiership anyway, accepting that it’s a 10wk mandatory rest, so that’s not really what I meant to debate.

[Digby]

I think the mental fatigue comes much more from being in camp, whether club, country or jamboree, and the continual training, gym sessions, recovery, meetings and the like much more than from actual game time.

Given it's a once every 4 years event it doesn't seem likely to have an impact on longer term thinking, it could see a few sides with 6-8 more points by Christmas than they'd otherwise have

[Scrumhead]

Luck of the draw when it comes to the weeks where each team has a bye, but if you’re a team who will lose several players to the rest period, AIs and 6 Nations, you’re looking at being under strength for about 12 games or at least half a season.

I’m not debating the validity of the rest period, I just think it could have a pretty significant bearing on the league table.

Using Saracens as an example - most seem to be tipping them for a return to the play off positions, but I’m not so sure. During the rest period, they start away against a full strength Bristol (not sure about post Olympic rest time for Radradra), have a bye in R2 then go away to Tigers before playing Newcastle at home and then Bath away. Their backs will still be good, but their tight 5 will be 2nd/3rd choice players which could make a big difference. Then they probably have a full squad for rounds 6 and 7 before potentially losing even more players (Lions contingent plus maybe Billy, Earl and Malins) for the AIs. Surely that’s very disruptive.

Not too dissimilar for Exeter when you consider how important LCD, Simmonds, Hill and Hogg are for them.

[FKAS]

Question - doesn't the Lions rest period only apply to Lions players? I thought we could thrash the South Africans as much as we liked?

Corollary - if we do have to rest the South African players, does that include the provincial and A team players? The difference for Leicester is between having a full team and missing Wiese and Van Staden for the opening.

Puja

We'll probably be missing Weise and van Staden anyway as the Southern Hemisphere comp is due to take place post Lions. Tigers likely to miss both Boks and both Pumas for the first few rounds of the Prem.

Lions rest period is what has been agreed between Unions and Clubs so wouldn't apply to Boks as their Union won't have an agreement with the club sides.

[Digby]

I’m not debating the validity of the rest period, I just think it could have a pretty significant bearing on the league table.
.

Given the distinction drawn with between those who'll have featured in the tests and those that haven't I did respond in part to the validity of the rest period as it pertains to all. I would add as an aside I don't actually know in this what constitutes rest, rugby can have some very odd ideas on 'rest', at times providing you only play the last 60 minutes you can be deemed to have rested as a for instance, or players can be on 'rest' but can be invited to 'voluntarily' attend all training and discussion sessions with full participation

[Scrumhead]

I’m not clear what you’re trying convince me of here?

My intention in creating the thread wasn’t to criticise the rest period, it was primarily to discuss the effect the Lions players missing an additional 4/5 games might have on the Premiership season given those players will already be missing for the international windows. I think it could have a big impact in determining how the table looks - that’s where I was going with it.

[Digby]

I'm not contesting that line of thinking, but not supporting a prem club it's not such a point of interest to me. I picked up on a different point in your post

[Shiny]

Anywho, it certainly has an effect on my fantasy rugby picks. How am I supposed to keep up my strong position near the bottom of the league if others can’t pick internationals for half of the season. I might even claw my way up to the top of the bottom third.

[Scrumhead]

Well almost every fantasy player will need another captain for at least 5 games with Simmonds rested.

[Danno]

Suggesting that Saracens will be effected after their "season" is interesting. /s

Weird that players are impacted regardless of their involvement e.g. Rees Zammit, Smith. Is this not a sort of pre season? (I'll set aside my snark about a Gatland pre season ohwaitIfailed)

Superedit: I swore I'd leave the forums alone when drinking but I'm leaving this up as a further lesson to sober Danno

[Scrumhead]

Suggesting that Saracens will be effected after their "season" is interesting. /s

Is it? I could be completely wrong, but I think they’re facing several challenges.

They might have had a year of easy rugby but I think we all saw the effect of their England contingent being off the pace in the 6N. With the exception of Earl, Malins and Lozowski, their entire squad will need time to adjust.

They have a bye in round two, but they have a pretty tough start and they’ll be missing up to 6 starters for 4 games. They’ll have them back briefly and will then lose them again for the AIs. Sure, their squad is good, but for example, a front row of Barrington, Woolstencroft and Clary is a very different proposition to Mako, George and Koch.

It also remains to be seen how much of an impact Sanderson’s switch to Sale will have. I’m really not a fan of his, but there’s no denying he was a massive part of their success and arguably the key figure in the coaching team in recent times. It didn’t affect them in the Championship, but I think they’ll feel his absence when the tough games are coming thick and fast in the Premiership.

Several teams have got better in their absence too.

[FKAS]

Suggesting that Saracens will be effected after their "season" is interesting. /s

Is it? I could be completely wrong, but I think they’re facing several challenges.

They might have had a year of easy rugby but I think we all saw the effect of their England contingent being off the pace in the 6N. With the exception of Earl, Malins and Lozowski, their entire squad will need time to adjust.

They have a bye in round two, but they have a pretty tough start and they’ll be missing up to 6 starters for 4 games. They’ll have them back briefly and will then lose them again for the AIs. Sure, their squad is good, but for example, a front row of Barrington, Woolstencroft and Clary is a very different proposition to Mako, George and Koch.

It also remains to be seen how much of an impact Sanderson’s switch to Sale will have. I’m really not a fan of his, but there’s no denying he was a massive part of their success and arguably the key figure in the coaching team in recent times. It didn’t affect them in the Championship, but I think they’ll feel his absence when the tough games are coming thick and fast in the Premiership.

Several teams have got better in their absence too.

Agree with this. Sarries going into the start of the season missing;

Mako, George, Koch
Itoje

That's half a pack and gone are the days their back up pack was like for like. They'll probably start the season with;

Barrington, Woolstencroft, Clarey
Hunter-Hill, Kpoku
Wray, Vunipola, Earl
Van Zyl, Goode
Tompkins, Lozowski
Lewington, Malins, Maitland

That's not nearly as frightening as it used to be. Backline still looks pretty tasty though.

[Danno]

Ionno guys, I was drunk as balls when I posted that. I do think they, as a squad overall (Lions aside) had more of a rest than anyone competing in the Prem finals for example.

[Scrumhead]

Undoubtedly they’ve had a lot more rest, the question is whether that will benefit them or hinder them.

Based upon what we saw from the Saracens players in the 6N, I’d be more inclined to think it will be problematic. With the exception of Lozowski, the only players who will have played any serious rugby in months are away with the Lions or SA (Koch).

Any argument that the play-offs with Ealing were proper games is undermined by the massive margins of victory.

[Danno]

I thought they had quite a few players on loan that would be returning, is it just Lozowski?

[Which Tyler]

I thought they had quite a few players on loan that would be returning, is it just Lozowski?

There was Tomkins, who went to Wales, but has been back at Sarries for a bit.
Then Bristol had Malins and Earls, who will be back with Sarries.

Top of my head, I can't think who else they lost on loan

[Mellsblue]

Iziekwe was on loan Saints.

[Which Tyler]

Iziekwe was on loan Saints.

TY - I knew I was missing someone obvious

[Big D]

When was the last time some of these guys had a break of more than say 2 games since the resumption of rugby post lockdown 1?

End of 19/20 into the end of the 6N into the ANC then back into the premiership. The likes of Biggar, Hogg, Curry and possibly one or two others must have played a good amount of games more than most.

[Which Tyler]

https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/sport/ot ... es-5869542

Confirmed that Monday 18th October return for the English Lions, but 13th September for the non-English Lions; so Sale, for example, will only be down by Curry, as their Saffers will be available.

Meanwhile, Bath have a slightly strange situation with their two British and Irish Lions, England international back Anthony Watson and Wales number eight Taulupe Faletau, as the two players will be ruled out of club duty for startling different time frames due to agreements with their respective unions.

Faletau, who played in one Test match in the 2-1 series defeat to the Springboks this summer, has a five-week mandatory rest period, while Watson, who played in the first two Tests, has 10 weeks off due to an agreement with the RFU.

Hooper explained: “We are mandated with the EPS agreement with Anthony but that doesn’t apply to Toby.

“He is an individual case we will manage.

“They are not back in the building yet, we are making sure they have a decent break post that last game and we will treat Toby on an individual basis to make sure when he is playing for us he is flying again.”

In theory, Faletau will be able to return to club duty on September 13, the week before the Premiership season kicks off, while Watson will not be able to play until the week of October 18, two weeks before England’s Autumn internationals get underway.

England play Tonga, South Africa and Australia in November.

Wales play New Zealand, South Africa, Fiji and Australia in the Autumn but the first game against the All Blacks on October 30 falls outside the international window meaning Faletau will most likely not be released for the international game.