Impact of Lions experience for England going forwards?

[jngf]

Some initial thoughts from Lions tour re England:

Mako and Cowan-Dickie did very well - Mako paticularly in set piece.

Itoje brilliant in first test - Can’t help thinking he really would be on another level if he could work on his body position in carrying and become a real force ball in hand - my frustration is I think he has the athletic ability and physical power to develop this but no coach (Bortwick aside) appears to be suggesting this to him that this might be something he should address

Johnny Hill - jury still out

Courtney Lawes - impact player not a starting 6 even though he had a fine first test.

Tom Curry’s performance was workmanlike but he doesn’t read the game or ref particularly well at openside and I’m not sure his rugby brain is at the same level as his physical commitment for the more technical side of the openside role - my conclusion has to be that I think it’s fair to say Underhill remains the first choice England openside - I see Curry as playing the Robshaw (6.5?) role going forwards with Curry at 6 (at least until Willis recovers from injury) - but this needs a combination of hard carrying and lineout jumping rolled into one at 8 so not Billy - if Curry and Underhill are to remain as the first choice England flankers going forwards.


Sam Simmonds - jury still out - if he ever gets back into an England side I suspect it’s going to have to be after taking a big decision to move to playing flanker with Chiefs first. I have some sympathy with the view that he’s too small for a test 8 ( playing him at 7 or even 6 at a pinch no problems in the size aspect though).

Owen Farrell was given an overdue reality check about his abilities at test level

Despite the first test I’d still give Daly a further look at 13

[Scrumhead]

You forgot George and Smith … not that I think being on this crappy Lions tour will have had much, (if any) impact on them. At least they, along with Hill can kind of forget they were there.

Other than that, you might be surprised to hear that I pretty much agree with your assessment.

I’m a huge fan of Tom Curry’s, but he had a poor tour. He seemed stuck between over exuberance and outright stupidity. He hasn’t really been like that before so I get the impression that he was trying too hard. Hopefully he learns from the experience.

I’m also hoping that that the ‘overdue reality check’ for Farrell carries over to England, but I suspect it probably won’t …

[Danno]

Can't argue with any of that.

Hill was never all that in an Exe shirt if you take away their offside invisibility cloak in the Prem. Got found out at International level, and him going ahead of Ryan, Henderson or Gray was pretty shocking. I hope he comes good because our Lock Stocks are dwindling compared to where we were say, 3 years ago.

George must have stunk in training or be carrying a niggle after Owens' performance today. Or, more likely, Gatland gonna Gatland

Glad Smith went, purely for more exposure to the international environment. Not as pleased - with a Quins hat on - that he's now laid off until well into October, but maybe we'll adapt our play without the Smith/Dombrandt/Ester axis a bit and not suffer the same issues from 2012-2018 when all our internationals get called up in Feb/Nov

Agree on Curry. Very uncharacteristic imo. I'd say the occasion got to him? Or maybe he's just mentally knackered after the 2019-2021 two year season that commenced at the WC.

It seems Simmonds won't make the England squad with Jones/Billy there, however poor Billy is. I read and agreed elsewhere that Billy takes an age to get up to speed after not much rugby, and I reckon the Champ counts as 'not much rugby'. But Jones will stick with him. He has Earl as his centre/flanker favourite atm

[Mikey Brown]

I’d say Curry was treading that exuberance/idiocy line for quite a lot of the 6 nations, very lucky to start 3 times, but yeah he’s played a ridiculous amount of top level rugby for someone his age and surely needs a rest.

[Puja]

I’d say Curry was treading that exuberance/idiocy line for quite a lot of the 6 nations, very lucky to start 3 times, but yeah he’s played a ridiculous amount of top level rugby for someone his age and surely needs a rest.

Agreed. He's a very intelligent flanker (despite jngf trying to work it into every post that he's not), but he didn't look it today and has had a poor last 6 months in general. We do have to remember that he is only 23 and he has had a lot of pressure on him from his meteoric rise. He'll hopefully benefit a lot from having the Lions-enforced break at the start of the season.

Puja

[fivepointer]

Think LCD may have benefited more than any other England player. Getting the nod to start 2 tests and leapfrog George will have done his confidence no end of good. He looks the part and will hopefully cement a starting spot with England.
Smith should have gained some valuable experience just by being with the squad.
Other than that, a few pretty much stood still and a few went backwards.
At least none of them copped a nasty injury.

[FKAS]

I’d say Curry was treading that exuberance/idiocy line for quite a lot of the 6 nations, very lucky to start 3 times, but yeah he’s played a ridiculous amount of top level rugby for someone his age and surely needs a rest.

Agreed. He's a very intelligent flanker (despite jngf trying to work it into every post that he's not), but he didn't look it today and has had a poor last 6 months in general. We do have to remember that he is only 23 and he has had a lot of pressure on him from his meteoric rise. He'll hopefully benefit a lot from having the Lions-enforced break at the start of the season.

Puja

Agreed. I thought he looked a bit weary yesterday like he'd played two very physical tests after a long season and was running on fumes and that was affecting his thinking. Hindsight being 20/20 an all that maybe Watson should have come in on the openside and freshened things up a bit. On the upside Curry now gets a decent break to rest up and with his bro at Sale there's not a massive need for them to rush him back in.

I think Curry paid the price for the backrow selection as well, Lawes and Conan didn't really go after the breakdown so it was up to Curry and Itoje to target the breakdown. Left a lot of Curry to do work wise. Beirne's absence from the side very much a surprise for me as I'd have had him a test starter, particularly with Lawes much like Curry looking weary.

[Mr Mwenda]

I think Curry paid the price for the backrow selection as well, Lawes and Conan didn't really go after the breakdown so it was up to Curry and Itoje to target the breakdown. Left a lot of Curry to do work wise. Beirne's absence from the side very much a surprise for me as I'd have had him a test starter, particularly with Lawes much like Curry looking weary.

This is something I was wondering about. They really seemed to have divvied up the roles and Curry's role was to seemingly be everywhere. That coupled with a very street smart SA back row meant he was having to work bloody hard. All in all a strange way to set up a pack it seemed.

[Scrumhead]

Throughout the tests, he seemed to have been given the role of being chief disruptor and bringing maximum aggression. He just overdid it.

Still, I wasn’t impressed that he didn’t seem to adapt when he was getting pinged. He had a few early examples in all of the tests that were adequate warnings but he kept going when he should have been a bit more intelligent.

[Scrumhead]

Not really covered yet, but I think this tour was definitely negative for Simmonds. He barely got a look in and then when he did get the chance to make an impact from the bench (IMO, his most likely role for England), I’m not even sure he touched the ball?

None of that is really his fault, but if anything it’s been another set back in proving he can be effective at test level.

[jngf]

I’d say Curry was treading that exuberance/idiocy line for quite a lot of the 6 nations, very lucky to start 3 times, but yeah he’s played a ridiculous amount of top level rugby for someone his age and surely needs a rest.

Agreed. He's a very intelligent flanker(despite jngf trying to work it into every post that he's not), but he didn't look it today and has had a poor last 6 months in general. We do have to remember that he is only 23 and he has had a lot of pressure on him from his meteoric rise. He'll hopefully benefit a lot from having the Lions-enforced break at the start of the season.

Puja

Puja, Being more precise what I’m saying is his game is first and foremost about high work rate and physical commitment rather than being a master tactician and reader of the ref (such as the greatest flankers like Macaw and Hill became) and to be fair that takes a number of years to inculcate and Curry may well evolve into that - I’m just saying he’s not there yet. Alternatively he may develop like Moody and have a successful career playing by instinct rather than being especially cerebral. As I said in my original post I think he will play a similar role to Robshaw going forward and quite possibly captain the side at some stage. I think in all fairness in your enthusiam for Curry you and to be fair many others have maybe a little prematurely placed him on a pedestal of greatness that is near impossible for a player to live up to?

[Puja]

I’d say Curry was treading that exuberance/idiocy line for quite a lot of the 6 nations, very lucky to start 3 times, but yeah he’s played a ridiculous amount of top level rugby for someone his age and surely needs a rest.

Agreed. He's a very intelligent flanker(despite jngf trying to work it into every post that he's not), but he didn't look it today and has had a poor last 6 months in general. We do have to remember that he is only 23 and he has had a lot of pressure on him from his meteoric rise. He'll hopefully benefit a lot from having the Lions-enforced break at the start of the season.

Puja

Puja, Being more precise what I’m saying is his game is first and foremost about high work rate and physical commitment rather than being a master tactician and reader of the ref (such as the greatest flankers like Macaw and Hill became) and to be fair that takes a number of years to inculcate and Curry may well evolve into that - I’m just saying he’s not there yet. Alternatively he may develop like Moody and have a successful career playing by instinct rather than being especially cerebral. As I said in my original post I think he will play a similar role to Robshaw going forward and quite possibly captain the side at some stage. I think in all fairness in your enthusiam for Curry you and to be fair many others have maybe a little prematurely placed him on a pedestal of greatness that is near impossible for a player to live up to?

Being more precise on my side, Curry's USP is being a tactician and reader of the ref. Yes, he's only 23 and doesn't have the depth of knowledge of a McCaw or Hill, but he shot to England success mostly on his rugby brain and had only added the physical commitment quite recently. Because he has made a go at 6 (and 8 to a lesser extent) and has added carrying to his repertoire, you have for some reason got it fixed in your head that he is a physical, energetic 6 of very little brain (or 6.5, as the insult goes), despite the fact that his game is still very much based around being cerebral.

He didn't have a good tour. But you can't just declare he's something entirely different because that fits your mental image of what a 6 is.

Puja

[Mr Mwenda]

Not really covered yet, but I think this tour was definitely negative for Simmonds. He barely got a look in and then when he did get the chance to make an impact from the bench (IMO, his most likely role for England), I’m not even sure he touched the ball?

None of that is really his fault, but if anything it’s been another set back in proving he can be effective at test level.

I agree, I was hoping he could show his Exeter form in a new system but he was largely anonymous in all the games he played. The lions clearly couldn't find a way to use his talent. The contrast with CD was marked.

[Digby]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

[FKAS]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

I don't find it particularly shocking that Simmonds wasn't at the peak of his powers given Gatland is famous for a brand of direct rugby with little in the way of nuance. He has tended to favour 8s that can carry into traffic and get around the park in defence. Gatland lacked the imagination to do anything other than try and copy what the Boks pack were offering and try to nullify them.

Simmonds works in certain systems that's just how it is with him he's not going to slot into any backrow because of his versatility. Gatland wasn't going to build a backrow around him like Baxter did and find space out wide for him to attack. Gatland's plan didn't really involve using the wingers out wide let alone anyone else. It took Russell going off script and doing his own thing to see our outside backs ball in hand.

[Mr Mwenda]

Oh I agree. I wanted Simmonds to show his stuff but he hasn't. I was less surprised he didn't suddenly dominate in 20 minutes v the Boks, it was his lack of impact in the tour games that perhaps is more telling.

[Mr Mwenda]

What evidence is there that Russell went off script?

[Mikey Brown]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

Do you have any more specific thoughts about how the 8s on the tour were used in general? Was Faletau just knackered or what? I felt he'd looked super sharp since returning from injury earlier in the season, but he just didn't look at the races at all. As with the centres I struggled to notice any particular theme of intent. Conan was the only one who managed to get on the ball at all really.

[Mikey Brown]

What evidence is there that Russell went off script?

There's a quote about Townsend telling him to just play his own game, right before he went on, but who knows if that really means anything in relation to what was planned.

[Puja]

What evidence is there that Russell went off script?

He passed the ball.

Puja

[Scrumhead]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

Well I don’t think it’s his fault he wasn’t picked for the tests. You could argue he didn’t show enough in training, but Gatland’s tactics were never going to lend themselves to the way Simmonds plays so to be honest, I don’t really know why he was picked in the first place? A number of us said at the time that it was at least partially motivated by the opportunity to troll Eddie and the way it worked out suggests there might be an element of truth to that.

As for yesterday’s game, I’m not really sure what Simmonds could have done really? His impact was reliant on him getting the ball and he just didn’t. There might be an argument to say he didn’t go looking for it enough, but I think that’s harsh. Let’s not forget that the Boks we’re trying to squeeze the life out of the game at that point and the Lions didn’t have the ball for a good chunk of the time he was on the pitch.

I’m a fan of Simmonds, but I’ve always questioned his effectiveness outside of the Exeter gameplan and I think he was always on a hiding to nothing here. I never thought he’d make the test team and his best shot was being a hero of the bench which was always fairly unlikely IMO.

[Puja]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

Well I don’t think it’s his fault he wasn’t picked for the tests. You could argue he didn’t show enough in training, but Gatland’s tactics were never going to lend themselves to the way Simmonds plays so to be honest, I don’t really know why he was picked in the first place? A number of us said at the time that it was at least partially motivated by the opportunity to troll Eddie and the way it worked out suggests there might be an element of truth to that.

As for yesterday’s game, I’m not really sure what Simmonds could have done really? His impact was reliant on him getting the ball and he just didn’t. There might be an argument to say he didn’t go looking for it enough, but I think that’s harsh. Let’s not forget that the Boks we’re trying to squeeze the life out of the game at that point and the Lions didn’t have the ball for a good chunk of the time he was on the pitch.

I’m a fan of Simmonds, but I’ve always questioned his effectiveness outside of the Exeter gameplan and I think he was always on a hiding to nothing here. I never thought he’d make the test team and his best shot was being a hero of the bench which was always fairly unlikely IMO.

TBH, his best moment was in the SA 22 when he combined with LCD's pick and go to go 5 hard metres forward in the Exeter fashion. Brought the Exeter gameplan in through just two players and it was highly effective - had no right to make those metres and it knocked the South Africans back far and fast enough that Mako was unlucky not to be held up. Unfortunately, then we had the comedy scrum where despite three consecutive SA offences, the ref gave reset, reset, penalty against Sinckler, and Simmonds didn't get the chance to do it again.

Puja

[Mikey Brown]

I don't agree. Indeed it seems odd, soft frankly, to suggest Simmonds not being able to perform isn't his fault.

It's the Arsene Wenger argument that one should only be expected to play a specific style and if everyone would just let you do that things would work out okay.

You might want to criticise the coaches in addition to Simmonds, but Simmonds doesn't get a pass

Well I don’t think it’s his fault he wasn’t picked for the tests. You could argue he didn’t show enough in training, but Gatland’s tactics were never going to lend themselves to the way Simmonds plays so to be honest, I don’t really know why he was picked in the first place? A number of us said at the time that it was at least partially motivated by the opportunity to troll Eddie and the way it worked out suggests there might be an element of truth to that.

As for yesterday’s game, I’m not really sure what Simmonds could have done really? His impact was reliant on him getting the ball and he just didn’t. There might be an argument to say he didn’t go looking for it enough, but I think that’s harsh. Let’s not forget that the Boks we’re trying to squeeze the life out of the game at that point and the Lions didn’t have the ball for a good chunk of the time he was on the pitch.

I’m a fan of Simmonds, but I’ve always questioned his effectiveness outside of the Exeter gameplan and I think he was always on a hiding to nothing here. I never thought he’d make the test team and his best shot was being a hero of the bench which was always fairly unlikely IMO.

TBH, his best moment was in the SA 22 when he combined with LCD's pick and go to go 5 hard metres forward in the Exeter fashion. Brought the Exeter gameplan in through just two players and it was highly effective - had no right to make those metres and it knocked the South Africans back far and fast enough that Mako was unlucky not to be held up. Unfortunately, then we had the comedy scrum where despite three consecutive SA offences, the ref gave reset, reset, penalty against Sinckler, and Simmonds didn't get the chance to do it again.

Puja

It sometimes feels like the metres that Simmonds regularly makes in close quarters around the ruck don't count in the same way as if others did it. Saying that, I do rate him as an option but I don't actually have much faith he'd be that effective in an Eddie team, rightly or wrongly.

I hadn't really thought about the impact of this tour on Eddie. What does he take from it in terms of his RWC PTSD?

[Puja]

Well I don’t think it’s his fault he wasn’t picked for the tests. You could argue he didn’t show enough in training, but Gatland’s tactics were never going to lend themselves to the way Simmonds plays so to be honest, I don’t really know why he was picked in the first place? A number of us said at the time that it was at least partially motivated by the opportunity to troll Eddie and the way it worked out suggests there might be an element of truth to that.

As for yesterday’s game, I’m not really sure what Simmonds could have done really? His impact was reliant on him getting the ball and he just didn’t. There might be an argument to say he didn’t go looking for it enough, but I think that’s harsh. Let’s not forget that the Boks we’re trying to squeeze the life out of the game at that point and the Lions didn’t have the ball for a good chunk of the time he was on the pitch.

I’m a fan of Simmonds, but I’ve always questioned his effectiveness outside of the Exeter gameplan and I think he was always on a hiding to nothing here. I never thought he’d make the test team and his best shot was being a hero of the bench which was always fairly unlikely IMO.

TBH, his best moment was in the SA 22 when he combined with LCD's pick and go to go 5 hard metres forward in the Exeter fashion. Brought the Exeter gameplan in through just two players and it was highly effective - had no right to make those metres and it knocked the South Africans back far and fast enough that Mako was unlucky not to be held up. Unfortunately, then we had the comedy scrum where despite three consecutive SA offences, the ref gave reset, reset, penalty against Sinckler, and Simmonds didn't get the chance to do it again.

Puja

It sometimes feels like the metres that Simmonds regularly makes in close quarters around the ruck don't count in the same way as if others did it. Saying that, I do rate him as an option but I don't actually have much faith he'd be that effective in an Eddie team, rightly or wrongly.

I hadn't really thought about the impact of this tour on Eddie. What does he take from it in terms of his RWC PTSD?

Hopefully that Lawes at international 6 DOES NOT F*CKING WORK AND NEVER HAS and that it tends to impact the performances of the other two back row as they have to cover him.

I'm kidding of course, he absolutely has not learned that.

Puja

[Big D]

Some initial thoughts from Lions tour re England:

Mako and Cowan-Dickie did very well - Mako paticularly in set piece.

Itoje brilliant in first test - Can’t help thinking he really would be on another level if he could work on his body position in carrying and become a real force ball in hand - my frustration is I think he has the athletic ability and physical power to develop this but no coach (Bortwick aside) appears to be suggesting this to him that this might be something he should address

Johnny Hill - jury still out

Courtney Lawes - impact player not a starting 6 even though he had a fine first test.

Tom Curry’s performance was workmanlike but he doesn’t read the game or ref particularly well at openside and I’m not sure his rugby brain is at the same level as his physical commitment for the more technical side of the openside role - my conclusion has to be that I think it’s fair to say Underhill remains the first choice England openside - I see Curry as playing the Robshaw (6.5?) role going forwards with Curry at 6 (at least until Willis recovers from injury) - but this needs a combination of hard carrying and lineout jumping rolled into one at 8 so not Billy - if Curry and Underhill are to remain as the first choice England flankers going forwards.


Sam Simmonds - jury still out - if he ever gets back into an England side I suspect it’s going to have to be after taking a big decision to move to playing flanker with Chiefs first. I have some sympathy with the view that he’s too small for a test 8 ( playing him at 7 or even 6 at a pinch no problems in the size aspect though).

Owen Farrell was given an overdue reality check about his abilities at test level

Despite the first test I’d still give Daly a further look at 13

If you excuse the Scottish interloper discussing English matters:

Mako was good, although did start to leak the odd scrum penalty when he got a bit tired IIRC which is understandable as it isn't a strength. He feels like an old 30 year old.
LCD was good but Christ he is going to end up doing himself real damage with those tackles as seen in the prem final.
Sinckler - I like him but I think he is a player that will be equal parts good and equal parts frustrating.
Itoje is class, but as you say could work on his carrying. Still by far the best lock in GB+I on his day.
Hill - seems to be good in his specific role for Exeter. Don't think he is an international lock. Certainly not for England.
Curry, just needs to calm down a little. Wasn't at his best in the tests which is ok, players are allowed off days. But the silly penalties (shoulder on Faf, the maul pen on Saturday) are killers. Cut that out whilst still living on the edge at rucks as a 7 should do then he'll continue his rise.
Lawes, tries really hard and will have the occasional big game but isn't a 6.
Simmonds - to me he needs a run at it or just continue to leave him out. He could be a bit of a "gadget" player to coin an NFL phrase where he is used in unusual ways but would require a coach to plan around him and at international level coaches will be more inclined not to.
Smith - Just play the kid. He is your future and probably should be your present.
Farrell - Only 29 but feels like his time should be up as an England starter.
Daly - You have better full backs, better wingers and better 13s. His ability to cover several spots makes him an attractive option for the 23 shirt but don't think he should start for you guys.

Edit: The future should be really bright for you guys.